Hi Jim,




One should not form opinion on BOM (Book of Mormon) based on observations by others. One should read the BOM cover to cover, as well as read the books by the witnesses directly (the more information we have, the better conclusion we may draw),






(1) David Whitmer's "An Address to All Believers in Christ"




http://www.greaterthings.com/Topical/DavidWhitmer.htm




(2) Martin Harris various testimonies and witnessings




http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/harris2.htm




(3) The private Letters of Oliver Cowdery




http://www.math.byu.edu/~smithw/Lds/LDS/Early-Saints/Letters-cowdery.html




(4) In an interview with a magazine




http://www.xmission.com/~research/about/docum4.htm




Martin Harris spoke about the plates,




[START QUOTE]




Joseph did not dig for these plates. They were placed in this way: four stones were set up and covered with a flat stone, oval on the upper side and flat on the bottom. Beneath this was a little platform upon which the plates were laid; and the two stones set in a bow of silver by means of which the plates were translated, were found underneath the plates.




These plates were seven inches wide by eight inches in length, and were of the thickness of plates of tin; and when piled one above the other, they were altogether about four inches thick; and they were put together on the back by three silver rings, so that they would open like a book.




[END QUOTE]






It is my sincere hope that you read David Whitmer's "An Address to All Believers in Christ" and also BOM.




One last thing I wish to clarify : I am for the Book of Mormon, which I think is true history of Mayan people from 600 B.C. to 420 A.D., I am not for the Mormon Church, nor any of their doctrines -- Mormonism. Anyone who joins the Mormon Church, or believe their doctrines, do so at his/her own risk.






Wu Siu Yan




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




Law of GOD and His Commandments




http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/true.htm




"Sermon on the Mount" -- Main Teachings of Jesus





http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/jesus.htm




Other Teachings of Jesus




http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/ModelJesus1.htm




Hymn loved by Chinese




http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/hymn.htm




My homepage




http://admiralty.pacific.net.hk/~sywu


http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

There has been extensive study concerning the cult of Mormonism and time and time again the evidence has shown that this so called religion is riddled with misconceptions, deceptions, and outright lies but it continues to grow and prosper. There is a reason for this but for the moment I want to address the foundation of this cult. Did the so called golden plates found by Joseph Smith exist? The following is a quote taken from an LDS site discussing the testimonies of the witnesses who said they actually saw the plates.




The Witnesses to The Book of Mormon




What of the prophet's story about gold plates, and what about his witnesses? Given Brodie's assumptions, was there not deception here,


if not collusion? Brodie maintains that the Prophet exercised some mysterious influence upon the witnesses which caused them to see the


plates, thus making Joseph Smith once more the perpetrator of a religious fraud. The evidence is extremely contradictory in this area, but


there is a possibility that the three witnesses saw the plates in vision only, for Stephen Burnett in a letter written in 1838, a few weeks


after the event, described Martin Harris' testimony to this effect:




When I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or


imagination, neither Oliver nor David . . . the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundations.




Burnett reported Harris saying that he had "hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or handkerchief over them, but he


never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain." Nonetheless, Harris said he believed the Book of Mormon to be true. In the


revelation given the three witnesses before they viewed the plates they were told, "it is by your faith that you shall view them" and "ye


shall testify that you have seen them, even as my servant Joseph Smith Jr. has seen them, for it is by my power that he has seen them."


There is testimony from several independent interviewers, all non-Mormon, that Martin Harris and David Whitmer said they saw the


plates with their "spiritual eyes" only. Among others, A. Metcalf and John Gilbert, as well as Reuben P. Harmon and Jesse Townsend,


gave testimonies to this effect. This is contradicted, however, by statements like that of David Whitmer in the Saints Herald in 1882,


"these hands handled the plates, these eyes saw the angel." But Z. H. Gurley elicited from Whitmer a not so positive response to the


question, "did you touch them?" His answer was, "We did not touch nor handle the plates." Asked about the table on which the plates


rested, Whitmer replied, "the table had the appearance of literal wood as shown in the visions of the glory of God." It does not seem


likely from all of this that Joseph Smith had to put undue pressure on the three witnesses. More likely their vision grew out of their own


emotional and psychological needs. Men like Cowdery and David Whitmer were too tough minded to be easily pressured by Smith.




So far as the eight witnesses go, William Smith said his father never saw the plates except under a frock. And Stephen Burnett quotes


Martin Harris that "the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument [their testimony published in the Book of


Mormon] for that reason, but were persuaded to do it." Yet John Whitmer told Wilhelm Poulson of Ovid, Idaho, in 1878 that he saw the


plates when they were not covered, and he turned the leaves. Hiram Page, another of the eight witnesses, left his peculiar testimony in a


letter in the Ensign of Liberty in 1848:




As to the Book of Mormon, it would be doing injustice to myself and to the work of God of the last days, to say that I could


know a thing to be true in 1830, and know the same thing to be false in 1847. To say my mind was so treacherous that I have


forgotten what I saw, to say that a man of Joseph's ability, who at that time did not know how to pronounce the word Nephi,


could write a book of six hundred pages, as correct as the Book of Mormon without supernatural power. And to say that


those holy Angels who came and showed themselves to me as I was walking through the field, to confirm me in the work of


the Lord of the last days--three of whom came to me afterwards and sang an hymn in their own pure language; yes, it would


be treating the God of heaven with contempt, to deny these testimonies.




With only a veiled reference to "what I saw," Page does not say he saw the plates but that angels confirmed him in his faith. Neither does


he say that any coercion was placed upon him to secure his testimony. Despite Page's inconsistencies, it is difficult to know what to


make of Harris' affirmation that the eight saw no plates in the face of John Whitmer's testimony. The original testimony of these eight


men in the Book of Mormon reads somewhat ambiguously, not making clear whether they handled the plates or the "leaves" of the


translated manuscript. Thus there are some puzzling aspects to the testimonies of the witnesses. If Burnett's statement is given credence


it would appear that Joseph Smith extorted a deceptive testimony from the eight witnesses. But why should John Whitmer and Hiram


Page adhere to Mormonism and the Book of Mormon so long if they only gave their testimony reluctantly? It may be that like the three


witnesses they expressed a genuine religious conviction. The particulars may not have seemed as important as the ultimate truth of the


work.




If you believe that one of these individuals did not actually see the plates does not the whole thing fall apart?




jim

Hi,


I am a Christian and I have studied Mormonism and its doctrines for a number of years. I have a Bible/Theology degree and I know that Mormon doctrine is in direct conflict with what is obviously taught in the New Testament and Old Testament. The evidence avaiable against the authenticity of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are overwhelming. If you want to know the truth read on. Why don't you start here. http://www.lds-mormon.com/ferg.shtml.




Jim

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Hi Jim,




One should not form opinion on BOM (Book of Mormon) based on observations by others. One should read the BOM cover to cover, as well as read the books by the witnesses directly (the more information we have, the better conclusion we may draw),






(1) David Whitmer's "An Address to All Believers in Christ"




http://www.greaterthings.com/Topical/DavidWhitmer.htm




(2) Martin Harris various testimonies and witnessings




http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/harris2.htm




(3) The private Letters of Oliver Cowdery




http://www.math.byu.edu/~smithw/Lds/LDS/Early-Saints/Letters-cowdery.html




(4) In an interview with a magazine




http://www.xmission.com/~research/about/docum4.htm




Martin Harris spoke about the plates,




[START QUOTE]




Joseph did not dig for these plates. They were placed in this way: four stones were set up and covered with a flat stone, oval on the upper side and flat on the bottom. Beneath this was a little platform upon which the plates were laid; and the two stones set in a bow of silver by means of which the plates were translated, were found underneath the plates.




These plates were seven inches wide by eight inches in length, and were of the thickness of plates of tin; and when piled one above the other, they were altogether about four inches thick; and they were put together on the back by three silver rings, so that they would open like a book.




[END QUOTE]






It is my sincere hope that you read David Whitmer's "An Address to All Believers in Christ" and also BOM.




One last thing I wish to clarify : I am for the Book of Mormon, which I think is true history of Mayan people from 600 B.C. to 420 A.D., I am not for the Mormon Church, nor any of their doctrines -- Mormonism. Anyone who joins the Mormon Church, or believe their doctrines, do so at his/her own risk.






Wu Siu Yan




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




Law of GOD and His Commandments




http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/true.htm




"Sermon on the Mount" -- Main Teachings of Jesus





http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/jesus.htm




Other Teachings of Jesus




http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/ModelJesus1.htm




Hymn loved by Chinese




http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/hymn.htm




My homepage




http://admiralty.pacific.net.hk/~sywu


http://balder.prohosting.com/sywu/

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

There has been extensive study concerning the cult of Mormonism and time and time again the evidence has shown that this so called religion is riddled with misconceptions, deceptions, and outright lies but it continues to grow and prosper. There is a reason for this but for the moment I want to address the foundation of this cult. Did the so called golden plates found by Joseph Smith exist? The following is a quote taken from an LDS site discussing the testimonies of the witnesses who said they actually saw the plates.




The Witnesses to The Book of Mormon




What of the prophet's story about gold plates, and what about his witnesses? Given Brodie's assumptions, was there not deception here,


if not collusion? Brodie maintains that the Prophet exercised some mysterious influence upon the witnesses which caused them to see the


plates, thus making Joseph Smith once more the perpetrator of a religious fraud. The evidence is extremely contradictory in this area, but


there is a possibility that the three witnesses saw the plates in vision only, for Stephen Burnett in a letter written in 1838, a few weeks


after the event, described Martin Harris' testimony to this effect:




When I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or


imagination, neither Oliver nor David . . . the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundations.




Burnett reported Harris saying that he had "hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or handkerchief over them, but he


never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain." Nonetheless, Harris said he believed the Book of Mormon to be true. In the


revelation given the three witnesses before they viewed the plates they were told, "it is by your faith that you shall view them" and "ye


shall testify that you have seen them, even as my servant Joseph Smith Jr. has seen them, for it is by my power that he has seen them."


There is testimony from several independent interviewers, all non-Mormon, that Martin Harris and David Whitmer said they saw the


plates with their "spiritual eyes" only. Among others, A. Metcalf and John Gilbert, as well as Reuben P. Harmon and Jesse Townsend,


gave testimonies to this effect. This is contradicted, however, by statements like that of David Whitmer in the Saints Herald in 1882,


"these hands handled the plates, these eyes saw the angel." But Z. H. Gurley elicited from Whitmer a not so positive response to the


question, "did you touch them?" His answer was, "We did not touch nor handle the plates." Asked about the table on which the plates


rested, Whitmer replied, "the table had the appearance of literal wood as shown in the visions of the glory of God." It does not seem


likely from all of this that Joseph Smith had to put undue pressure on the three witnesses. More likely their vision grew out of their own


emotional and psychological needs. Men like Cowdery and David Whitmer were too tough minded to be easily pressured by Smith.




So far as the eight witnesses go, William Smith said his father never saw the plates except under a frock. And Stephen Burnett quotes


Martin Harris that "the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument [their testimony published in the Book of


Mormon] for that reason, but were persuaded to do it." Yet John Whitmer told Wilhelm Poulson of Ovid, Idaho, in 1878 that he saw the


plates when they were not covered, and he turned the leaves. Hiram Page, another of the eight witnesses, left his peculiar testimony in a


letter in the Ensign of Liberty in 1848:




As to the Book of Mormon, it would be doing injustice to myself and to the work of God of the last days, to say that I could


know a thing to be true in 1830, and know the same thing to be false in 1847. To say my mind was so treacherous that I have


forgotten what I saw, to say that a man of Joseph's ability, who at that time did not know how to pronounce the word Nephi,


could write a book of six hundred pages, as correct as the Book of Mormon without supernatural power. And to say that


those holy Angels who came and showed themselves to me as I was walking through the field, to confirm me in the work of


the Lord of the last days--three of whom came to me afterwards and sang an hymn in their own pure language; yes, it would


be treating the God of heaven with contempt, to deny these testimonies.




With only a veiled reference to "what I saw," Page does not say he saw the plates but that angels confirmed him in his faith. Neither does


he say that any coercion was placed upon him to secure his testimony. Despite Page's inconsistencies, it is difficult to know what to


make of Harris' affirmation that the eight saw no plates in the face of John Whitmer's testimony. The original testimony of these eight


men in the Book of Mormon reads somewhat ambiguously, not making clear whether they handled the plates or the "leaves" of the


translated manuscript. Thus there are some puzzling aspects to the testimonies of the witnesses. If Burnett's statement is given credence


it would appear that Joseph Smith extorted a deceptive testimony from the eight witnesses. But why should John Whitmer and Hiram


Page adhere to Mormonism and the Book of Mormon so long if they only gave their testimony reluctantly? It may be that like the three


witnesses they expressed a genuine religious conviction. The particulars may not have seemed as important as the ultimate truth of the


work.




If you believe that one of these individuals did not actually see the plates does not the whole thing fall apart?




jim

Hi Jim,

You have studied Mormonism and its doctrines for a number of years, and you found them to be false, this I agree. But have you read BOM direct ?

My argument is not about Mormonism, but whether BOM is a true history book of the Mayans (600 B.C. to 420 A.D.) or not ? (What has the translator, JS, and the church he founded, LDS, to do with Mayan history ? and that history stopped at 420 A.D. ?)

I'm glad that you have a degree in theology, but it is also my worries too, because theology teaches a lot of "philosophy"; moreover, many ancient books have "false-authors" and believing them to be true is real danger for Christians, as they contain devilish precepts.

I too am a Christian and what I believe is simple -- Jesus "Sermon on the Mount" + "Unless you return and become like Children, you can never enter the kingdom of GOD. Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greattest in the kingdom of GOD".

Regards,

Wu Siu Yan

P.S. Still, it is my wish that you read BOM, which may be downloaded from Project Gutenberg, http://www.promo.net/pg

Or, you may read the First Book of BOM here, [Click to read first book in BOM]

Hi Jim,

Let me put it this way.

Suppose Confucius buried his writing "Analect of Confucius" under the ground, and many years later, an American found that out.

And suppose he had talents to read Chinese character, and he translated it into English, and also established an organization, called "Confucius Organization" in USA. But because he was tempted into sin and fell later in his life, he introduced many devilish precepts into his "Confucius Organization".

Question : will that falsify Confucius "Analect of Confucius" ?




When we investigate whether "Confucism" is true or false, shall we read the writings of that American or shall we read Confucius book direct ?

Wu Siu Yan