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The drowning

Hi Jerry,
I posted a couple of months ago, (the baby) and we had an interesting discussion. For the last couple of months I have not been sleeping well or remembering my dreams. Then last night I had the following dream - it was very vivid and detailed...

I was in my apartment and a friend was staying with me. The apartment was spacious beautiful and immaculately decorated. I was very tired and sleepy and wearing a skimpy night suit. I lay down on the sofa to take a rest. When I looked up one of my ex-in laws was there, my ex-husbands cousin, she is large (obese) and a very cheerful successful woman with her own business and an amazing sense of humor. She was meeting with my friend and having her tarot cards read (In real life I read tarot and use it for self growth and inner knowledge and believe I may have a gift. I only read for others – close friends – as a favor) . I was annoyed, as I had been teaching my friend how to read the tarot, and she was still in my opinion not very good at all, and was now using the tarot to make herself interesting and make new friends.

At a certain point they both went out. I was still sleepy and could barely open my eyes. Could only see in a hazy way. Then I realized that her parents (ex aunt and uncle-inlaw) were arriving and I had to get up and follow to meet them otherwise it would be rude. I wrapped my blanket around me as I was not dressed appropriately. I followed my friend and ex-husbands cousin out of the apartment into a house where there were a lot of people (I knew most of them) Everyone was upset. Something was happening but I still couldn’t see properly and was trying to strain my eyes which were heavy with sleep.

Then a strange thing happened. A part of the house broke off like a vehicle and I was sitting in it with several other people. This vehicle seemed to be gliding down an incline and suddenly we fell into a body of water. My eyes were still heavy and blurring. I was concerned, but realized it was very easy for me to get out before I could drown as I was sitting in an open area. However, instead of submerging, we were floating. That’s when I realized we were in a boat. My eyes were no longer blurry. I moved forward and saw some official looking men in uniform sitting in an area below me. And there was a young very attractive couple tied up and resting on the edge of the boat. I realized that I was witnessing an execution, the couple had been caught for fornicating in public and were to be drowned as punishment. I started protesting and shouting at the officials to stop. One of them looked up at me and said he also doesn’t agree with the execution and it makes him “sick to the stomach” but he couldn’t do anything to stop it. I became angrier and did everything in my power to stop it, but I was the only one. Everyone else kept quiet and were watching. As they lowered the couple into the water they weighed them down and also took out large hoses to force water into their mouths to increase the agony. At this point I knew the only thing I could do was pray. So I prayed and prayed that they would not suffer, for the pain to ease. I felt comforted, because it felt like the prayers had worked and the couple did not suffer before they died.


The boat returned to the house and I got out. I saw it go under the house to some hidden garage below. It was then I realized that I had left my bag on the boat. It had all my credit cards and cash and I was concerned. I turned to one of the officials and asked if I could go below to get it, but he said he would go. A little time passed and he didn’t return so I went down to search for myself. I came across a partially closed door and peeped inside. He was there with my bag and was going through it out of curiousity. There were 2 other men there also. I entered the room and he returned the bag to me. One of the other officials in the room was eyeing me and I knew he was interested in me. Although he wasn’t my type, he was attractive enough and so I sat on his lap and whispered in his ear to get my number from the head official (who now turned out to be a family friend). My intention was to have a one night stand with him.

Your comments?

Lulu

Age/Gender & Location {Age & Gender Absolutely Required}: 47-Karachi

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Re: The drowning

Lulu,
I'll provide an interpretation later today. But I want to comment on something you said that I feel to be very important having to do with your tarot card reading.

Although I don't have a great interest in tarot I do have a some experience in 'following your bliss'. This is Joseph Campbell's famous quote about finding that thing in life that interests the heart and following that path. If you feel you possess a 'gift' with tarot then I say go for it. Do as you are doing now, read the cards for friends, and when you have enough experience follow that path your soul directs you to go.

This 'following your bliss' works, I know, it has worked for me. It is how I got started in dream interpretation. First I began the difficult task of learning Jungian psyche {not as a profession but as an interest}. It eventually blossomed into learning all I could about the dream. I started with interpreting dreams at other web sites {early 1998 into 1999}. Then as I gained confidence and experience I designed my own web forum for dream interpretation. I soon discovered I possessed 'intuitive' insights, both to Jungian psyche as well as the dream {we can't separate the two}. And now, well my goal is to spend all my time working with dreams. And that goal is within reach, my plans to take early retirement and use that income to pay the 'dragon' as I ''following your bliss'.

A side note: as a part of the 'bliss' is my web site Myths-Dreams-Symbols. That too began in 1998. It was a bit crude at first but I have 'self taught' myself the basic fundamentals of HTML {the primary coded language of the internet}. Perhaps because the two endeavors, dreams and web design, use 'coded language' as their source both of these interests have become my 'bliss. Myths-Dreams-Symbols is my creative self, my way of self expression, the 'other me', my 'true self'. Working with dreams is my passion, my way of 'giving' to the other, a spiritual endeavor that is a natural aspect of the psyche, as is the creative. I seem to have a natural 'instinctive' inclination to Jungian psyche, thinking of myself as an 'intuitive Jungian'.

So I enthusiastically suggest you do the same, follow those inner instincts that say, 'this fits with who I am'. It is not too late. I was 42 when I first discovered Campbell. At 61 I have slowly developed my skills and intuitive mind. The results can be seen at my web site and in my interpretations. And for a lay person dwelling in a world of professional psychology, those who follow me are primarily Jungian psychologists, Jungian enthusiasts or people involved in the creative world. Not to shabby for a one time couch potato whose primary mental effort was sports.
The message being. No matter how you started out in life, fate can bring you to that true self. Follow your bliss. And as Joseph Campbell correctly surmised, and from my experience, 'you will come to bliss'.

Jerry

Age/Gender & Location {Age & Gender Absolutely Required}: 61 Murfreesboro, Tn. USA

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Re: The drowning

Lulu,
Because we have established your spiritual interests
in 'non-traditional' concepts, we should to this dream to see if it is following up on these aspects. Because there is the mention of tarot and a cursory reading of the dream points in that direction, I sense it is.

If you will look at the different people mentioned in the dream as relating to the aspects/qualities they possess or represent as they apply to you, then the dream pieces will probably fall into place.

The apartment is one aspect of yourself. That aspect is beautiful, a positive aspect. The skimpy night suite may suggest other unconscious not so positive aspects that you wish to 'take a rest from'.

Your ex-in law may reflect conflicts in your life and/or contradictory aspects. She is obese yet cheerful and successful. The positive qualities may be aspects you wish to incorporate into your personality and/or life. The contradictions may apply to ego aspects in your life. These contradictions may have to do with your interest in tarot. The annoying part may have to do with questions to your abilities in tarot reading. Making new friends and being interesting would involve inner qualities about yourself, a need to apply the positive aspects to the outer ego self to make life more interesting.

Note questioning ones abilities in a talent is usual. I can remember early on questioning my abilities with the dream. But because the dream was so appealing I could not give it up. It eventually became clear I possessed a 'talent' and the interest was as much as unconscious as it was conscious.

'Going out' may reflect ego aspects. With the previous symbols and the interpretation I sense there may be aspects of the tarot that are positive but others perhaps negative. There is a 'haze' to the 'differences'. 'Her' parents, assuming qualities/aspects about her that are appealing to your psyche, would may make them your parents. In your culture it would be 'rude' not to follow their instructions, or their wishes for your life {their desire for you to be successful in the social world like your cousin}. This is beginning to affect your whole being moving from just the apartment to the house}. This is upsetting your balance. There are heavy unconscious forces at work preventing you from seeing clearly in your waking life.

Could all this represent the conflicts in your 'family' life that are in conflict. Your true inner desires vs what your family wishes for you to do/be. Spiritual aspects of tarot may be in conflict with ego aspects of the pressures to follow cultural laws and not spiritual desires.

The strange happening may reflect 'inner recognizition. Breaking off from the house, your family, allows/would allow you to move forward. Unconsciously you 'know' you will not 'drown' in your emotional life if this would to happen. There is a 'realization, albeit unconscious still, you will have to face the 'consequences' {emotional punishment}. You may feel alone in this endeavor to be your true self.

The part about the couple being punished would be symbolic of aspects of your psyche. Perhaps weighed down from verbal comments from others. Prayers are communications to a higher authority. The 'true' higher authority is within you. Going inward, recognizing your true inner self, that is what is helpful in the outer world of emotional conflicts.

Something about boats that Joseph Campbell spoke of that may provide insights to your boat. Boats are use as vessels to navigate the unconscious aspects of the psyche. They take you to 'new lands' within. I sense the dream is addressing the emotional aspects of this new self'. And the conflicts having to do with family and cultural that are 'traditional'.

The final paragraph.
There may be elements of this last paragraph, if not the dream itself, that have to do with waking life experiences. I will look at the symbolic representations instead and see what they may represent. It is not clear to what those are speaking to and may be dependent on waking life experiences to help determine the 'inner' life associations.

The house is you. The garage is where you park aspects of yourself vehicles}. There are 'hidden aspects. But to access these aspects you have to get past the ego world of materialism {credit cards and cash}.

There are also masculine aspects involved or emerging. Not a quality you favor but are useful {one night stand}. There is one particular masculine aspect that is appealing. You may have to utilize these qualities to get what you want/need. This would require consulting the 'head', your thinking aspects {thinking aspects would be masculine, intuitive aspects the feminine}.
What is there about the family friend is there that would be used to define aspects about yourself? 'He' would be symbolic but life the earlier people in the dream would possibly represent qualities/aspects about yourself you identity with. Not a long term relationship is involved. Look to both the waking life and the symbolic representations to determine his 'presence' in the dream.

Let me know your thoughts about my suggestions. If you have not been sleeping well {noted in your dream of 'being sleepy'} then it is a good bet there are stresses on your mind that are preventing it. It may be an accumulation of on going stresses. The specific reasons would most likely have to do with your spiritual endeavors and the conflicts that are involved with that.

Jerry

Jerry

Age/Gender & Location {Age & Gender Absolutely Required}: 61 Murfreesboro, Tn. USA

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Re: The drowning

Hi Jerry,
Thanks for your replies, my internet has been down and just got it up and working again!

I would like to read through your comments carefully and send you a reply tomorrow, a lot to discuss!
Lu

Age/Gender & Location {Age & Gender Absolutely Required}: 47-Karachi

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post Female

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Re: The drowning

Hi Jerry,
A few comments on the tarot,

I "discovered" tarot about six months ago, by a strange series of synchronistic events that led me to start this fascinating study/practice. If you had asked me even a year ago I had no interest in such practices, was a skeptic.

The interest in tarot coincided with my interest in Jungian psychology (which I also started studying about 6 months ago) and I have since found many similarities.

The tarot is a "language" so to speak which allows access to the "Inner Self". The cards, especially the Majors, comprise of mythological/archetypal figures that represent spiritual tests and evolution in our life journey, while the minors represent outer world reflections and manifestations. Somewhat similar to dream interpretation. My research has shown that although not a direct focus of his work, Jung recognized tarot as depicting archetypes of transformation, and had a deep interest in investigating this further along with other "intuitive, synchronistic methods". Of course, he was unable to take these investigations further in his lifetime.

In following my bliss - which is ultimately a focus and dedication to my spiritual path towards enlightenment/ individuation- I find myself powerfully drawn to several mystical/metaphysical practices. And yet being a realistic also I find as I deepen my studies of Jung, that there is a scientific approach which can help place these methods into a "real" world context.

I suppose I am lucky that I have reached a stage where I can dedicate my time to these studies. And hence now my interest in discovering the world of dreams :)

Age/Gender & Location {Age & Gender Absolutely Required}: 47-Karachi

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Re: The drowning

Thanks for your comments on my dream.

As you rightly point out, perhaps there are aspects of the dream that show my inner and outer conflicts about tarot reading - in my "outer world" this has come across as a bit flaky, whereas I have been known to be a very practical and intelligent person in the past (was a successful investment banker!) Also finding close ones a bit taken aback that I have left my career for something as esoteric and "vague" as spiritual studies!

I think perhaps the "obese, yet cheerful in-law" reflects my unconcious need to hold my own as the new person I am becoming - she's obese (socially negative) but happy and I am a flaky tarot reader- also socially negative when I have historically maintained a social and self image of "practical and intelligent"?

The second conflict concerning tarot - the annoyance about my friend trying to appear "interesting". The annoyance is specifically because I see the tarot as a spiritual tool used for self awareness and growth, rather than a party game or social tool. The temptation to misuse the tarot to impress others conflicts with another aspect of my self-image "the serious and deep spiritualist".

So you are right, the conflicts are many concerning tarot - and on a larger scale these are conflicts related to my choices for my spiritual life -going against established cultural and social norms.

The second part of the dream, where the haziness has gone and I am seeing with clarity and I break free from the house and enter the waters...., I have a feeling may have to do with another conflict i am facing, my sexual/romantic life.

Your comment on the final paragraph "There may be elements of this last paragraph, if not the dream itself, that have to do with waking life experiences. I will look at the symbolic representations instead and see what they may represent. It is not clear to what those are speaking to and may be dependent on waking life experiences to help determine the 'inner' life associations."

I am currently 8 months out of my fourth, failed, long term relationship (2 were marriages). This had lasted 5 years. I left the relationship because he wanted marriage kids settling down, and I didnt want that. At the same time, as a side effect of this break up, I have shifted back to Karachi (was living in London) -where having the type of relationship I want is impossible due to a disapproving culture and sheer lack of like-minded people. This is definitely a huge conflict in my outer world for me.

Perhaps the punishment of the couple in the boat reflects my fears of following my "bliss" in relationship in this environment?

The family friend - who i trust to provide assistance to the one night stand- would perhaps be an integrating factor between my inner desires and outer world?

Appreciate your further guidance,
Thanks
Lu

Age/Gender & Location {Age & Gender Absolutely Required}: 47-Karachi

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Re: The drowning

Lulu,
I will address this first response initially then the second. I want to discuss our shared interests in Jungian pysche since you bring up some very interesting points related to his psychological principles/concepts. Much of what you penned in your response is pretty much voiced in 'Chaos and the Psychological Symbolism of the Tarot. Here is the opening paragraph from that page. It describes in brief the relationship of tarot to Jungian psyche.

The Tarot deck contains archetypal symbols that can be related to the analytical psychology of the Swiss psychologist, Carl Jung. The Tarot deck, especially the major arcana or trump cards, can be used effectively in therapy. The client, with the assistance of the therapist, conducts a reading or uses several cards to tell a story and then discusses possible meanings of the symbols in his or her own words. The therapist then relates the symbolic meanings given by the client to the client's problem in much the same manner as in Jungian dream analysis. This therapeutic process can be explained by using a chaos model. Using a chaos model of therapy, a period of psychic instability is deliberately induced by the therapist through stimulation of the imagination via the Tarot symbols. Concentration on the Tarot symbols induces bifurcation points that the therapist then uses to direct change toward desired attractors. This is similar to the well-known techniques of paradoxical communication, paradoxical intervention, and prescribing the symptom, all of which induce a temporary condition of psychic instability that is required for a bifurcation.

From what I know about Jung in his later life was his interests in the 'occult' and metaphysical studies. I have thought for some time now the use of symbols and metaphor were the prime reasons for Jung's later life interests in Tarot and astrology. Both can be used as 'maps' to the unconscious and are applicable ways of reaching into the unconscious. Of course I feel dreams are the best way to do this since they are a direct link to the unconscious and there is no need for 'paradoxical communication, paradoxical intervention, and prescribing the symptom' to get to the unconscious psyche. 'Simply' by interpreting the symbols and understanding the the metaphorical references in dream provides a direct link to the unconscious. No 'in betweens' needed. The symptoms can be determined by interaction with the dreamer and the associations of the symbolic references which are actual reference to the dreamer.

Not to say these methods are wrong. Even dream therapy needs a 'trained' person to help the dreamer in understanding the emotional conflicts . If tarot or astrology 'fit' with the psyche then that is where one should go {as dreams 'naturally' and 'intuitively' fit with my psyche}. Interpreting the symbols, understanding the metaphors, these are the 'secrets' of working with the deep psyche. It is fascinating to be able to do understand either of these methods, especially when there is those 'intuitive' insights that lets one 'see' into the unconscious workings of another person. I often feel I know more about the dreamer than they know about them self. Dreams reveal the true person, via symbolic/metaphors associations. Some things you can not hide no matter how hard the conscious, or the unconscious mind, tries. Being able to 'read' another person's 'inner self' is gift and can lend itself to helping others. Such actions make this a spiritual endeavor. These are areas of study, as was with Jung in his later life, I hope to investigate more when I retire and have the time to do so.
Ahh!!! The 'BLISS' factor. So much of that equation is predicated on the spiritual path, enlightenment and individuation. I think of bliss as being the next best thing to Nirvana. And when I think of Nirvana I think of it as described by Joseph Campbell {da!}.
Nirvana is a psychological state of being where one is indifferent to fear, desire and social duty. Campbell stated few reach this 'place' in conscious life. Jung may have. I believe this is what set Jesus and the Buddha apart, having reached that 'individuated' state of consciousness.

I can not claim any resemblance to Jesus or the Buddha, or even Jung, other than my own journey to 'Individuation'. So I must settle for 'bliss'. As Campbell also said about 'following your bliss {from The Power of Myth}:

“I came to this idea of bliss because in Sanskrit, which is the great spiritual language of the world, there are three terms that represent the brink, the jumping-off place to the ocean of transcendence: Sat, Chit, Ananda. The word ‘Sat’ means being. ‘Chit’ means consciousness. ‘Ananda’ means bliss or rapture. I thought, ‘I don’t know whether my consciousness is proper consciousness or not; I don’t know whether what I know of being is my proper being or not; but I do know where my rapture is. So let me hang on to rapture, and that will bring me both my consciousness and my being.’ I think it worked.”

Nirvana, probably not attainable. My Bliss, definitely attainable. Working with dreams are my rapture. Tarot may be yours. Learning to think objectively and not emotionally.

As my friend Jean Raffa so rightly penned it
think psychologically and live spiritually

Jerry

Age/Gender & Location {Age & Gender Absolutely Required}: 61 Murfreesboro, Tn. USA

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Re: The drowning

Lulu,
I will provide my response to this second part tomorrow. I do appreciate the indepth response you provided.

Jerry

Age/Gender & Location {Age & Gender Absolutely Required}: 61 Murfreesboro, Tn. USA

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Re: The drowning

Quick response- you have inspired me to start reading Campbell and to continue learning about dream interpretation in greater depth.

And aaah the rapture :) the Campbell quote was beautiful!

Look forward to your further comments

Lu x

Age/Gender & Location {Age & Gender Absolutely Required}: 47-Karachi

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Re: The drowning

Lulu,
Sorry for not responding yesterday. A long day serving the 'social dragon' {day job}.

'New age' thinking {of old age philosophies} is hard to accept by many especially when, as you say, they are used to the practical person who dwells in the 'house of social duty' {conforming to what society requires and not what the soul desires}. Although the 'new spirituality' is becoming more acceptable in Western cultures this is less so in countries where strong patriarchal rule is the 'law' of the land {as you state about your native Karachi-"where having the type of relationship I want is impossible due to a disapproving culture"}. This would be the outer negative aspects, family, culture, a lack of like minded souls. And because you had established yourself as a successful investment banker, to give that up for something that is frown upon to begin with, the pressures you endure in your social world must be deflating to the new 'inner world' you have discovered. I can say from my own similar experiences {but in a much more accepting social environment}, the inward journey that pleases the soul is not something that is readily acceptable by family and friends.

The boat in your dream reminds me of something Joseph Campbell said in one of his many interviews. His description of a boat is symbolic of taking one to another distant shore where the 'new inner self is discovered' and the 'old self left behind'. Campbell's investigation of mythology and relating it to the dream world helped me understand symbol and metaphor. But more important it helped me understand how to get past the 'literal' applications and apply it to my own personal life, metaphorically, and psychologically. Spiritually, when the story of Jesus on the cross is taking literally it is difficult to apply it to a world where science and technology tells us it is impossible to be true. But when taken metaphorically, the death and resurrection of Jesus on the cross is what must happen to the individual. Death to the ego centered, material driven life and a resurrection to the spiritual 'Self' where the life is governed by spiritual principles. And when 'new age' spiritual concepts such as tarot and Jungian psyche become the soul's journey it makes it even more difficult to 'fit in'. So I quit trying to fit in and learned to be my 'true self'. The true self is what dreams wish to expose so the outer life will match the inner. Conforming to the inner and not te outer, that is the path that must be followed.

So these conflicts in your dream are primarily about the emotional conflicts of the inner world vs the outer {as well as the accumulated unresolved emotional conflicts throughout life} . Making room for the 'new identity' becomes the path in life. And as in mythology all types of 'dragons' ogres, devils and the like are thrown at the hero/heroine and must be overcome/slain {what I refer to as slaying the social dragons}. The hero/heroine taken metaphorically is you and me in our quest for spiritual enlightenment. And there is usually a 'new path' that is discovered while on this journey, tarot in your life, Jungian psyche in mine. An alignment to teh creative nature, the Muse, that thing in life the person loves most doing.

The problem becomes 'how to balance' this new identity with the old. For you it is much more difficult because of where you live. How to resolve that will be a tall task indeed. But as long as you ignore this 'inner calling' the outer world will become even more difficult. Not only because of the pressures of family, friends and culture but also because of the 'true nature' that fits your soul that 'shouts' to be heard. Once the true spiritual identity is realized your life will not accept anything less. And once you decide to undertake the 'hero journey' you can never go back to the old. Your life is governed by those concepts of the hero path, an unconscious attitude that overrides any conscious attempt to live life otherwise. Campbell's 'Monomyth', the basic patterns of the hero/heroine journey, is more than just a concept in the hero life, it rules the unconscious life {overruling the conscious mind} because of the realization that the hero is within. This is what I define as Gnosis, the inner knowledge of the true spiritual identity. And as with the early Gnostics of the 1st thru 3rd centuries, we are looked upon as 'heretic's because we dare apply this 'inner knowledge' to the outer life.

You very well may be at this stage of decision in your life. Whether to follow the inner path that the soul desires or forsake that calling and live life as society dictates {take into consideration the 'Monomyth', the part about Refusal of the Call}. The task at hand is to balance these two aspects of duality until you are able to be that true self. 'Surviving' in the a world of 'social duty', living life spiritually {beyond religion} while you work toward that goal of achieving wholeness. And if your 'bliss' is tarot, well nothing will fulfill the soul's desires except this 'new way' of thinking.
Until then, think psychologically and live spiritually.

Jerry

Age/Gender & Location {Age & Gender Absolutely Required}: 61 Murfreesboro, Tn. USA

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