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Re: reoccurring themes


Katchi,
I will provide a more detailed response later. In the meantime me provide you with more information on the shadow so to be clear about its meaning. You will see from what I provide that your High John does not meet the normal requirements of Jung's shadow and that is why I stated that when I presented it to you in my interpretation. But there are always possibilities of unknown or unseen qualities of a myth {High John} that would fit. The fact you have a strong masculine trait as a giver could lend itself to further possibilities. The fact that 'he' was associated with 'folk magic' from other cultures also leaves the door open. Folk practices like hoodoo are trans-cultural phenomena and because of that there may be archetypal associations. And as me are reminded by Jung himself, none of his concepts/theories are fixed. He went to great strides to let it be known that he had no 'dogma' when it came to his philosophy of the dream or psyche. Leave no stone unturned and eventually something new will be found.

The following is information I have edited {in preparation for the scheduled classes on dreams I will present in Melbourne Fl.} from Anthony Stevens short book {content as well as size} Jung: A Very Short Introduction. You mat want to purchase the book {it will most likely need to be ordered} since it is probably the best short introduction source on Jungian psyche available. It costs less than $10.00. It is also available on CD {I have both}



The Shadow
The shadow is the disowned subpersonality, hidden away in the ‘Freudian’ unconscious

It persists as a powerful dynamic we take with us where we go-a dark companion which dogs our steps, just like the shadow we see when light is shined on us and leaves a shadow

Much of the time we manage to ignore it but it has an uncomfortable way of reminding us of its presence, particularly in our dreams

In dreams the shadow tends to appear as sinister/threatening figure possessing the same sex as dreamer
Not infrequently appears as a member of a different nation, color or race and usually has an alien or hostile feel about it which gives to powerful feelings of distrust anger of fear

The shadow is a complex, a cluster of traits bound together by common affects and has an archetypal core, the archetype of the Enemy, the Predator, or the Evil Stranger

Of all archetypes the Enemy is the most important and it becomes apparent during the first year of life

An infant is delighted to be approached by the mother but shows signs of wariness or withdrawal when approached by a stranger

By the second year of life this fear of xenophobic { fear of people from other places} propensity ripens into a full blown expression of fear and hostility

Both attachment and xenophobia are innate predispositions-they appear inn infants wherever they are born and in whatever circumstances they are brought up-even blind and deaf children {differentiate by smell}

the archetype of the enemy is 'actualized’ in the personal psyche as the shadow complex through growing up in a human social environment

two sources of the shadow complex-cultural indoctrination and familial repression {relating to family}

cultural source includes what is politically taught about out-groups considered to be hostile to ones in-group {nation, band or tribe}
and theologically about the concept of evil {Satan, hell, Devil}

the shadow inevitably comes to possess qualities opposite those of the persona
the shadow compensating for the superficial pretensions of the persona
the persona balancing the antisocial characteristics of the shadow
{Dorian Gray-Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde}

Keeping the shadow out of sight is not an act of will but as an act of submission to the inner authority
Freud’s super-ego, what Jung called the moral complex

It is not because there is a fear of being, as Freud believed, castrated by the father as a reprisal for entertaining incestuous desires
but rather a fear of being abandoned by the mother for being unacceptable

the dread prospect of being rejected due to some ‘bad’ aspect of the self seems to be the stimulus of all feelings of guilt, all desire for punishment, and all longings for atonement and reconciliation

the moral complex forms on the basis of an archetypal imperative to learn and maintain the values of the culture we are born
if no such imperative existed we all be psychopaths, incapable of co-operation or mutual trust

acquisition of the moral complex imposes severe restraints on the Self, much which is regulated to the shadow, where it is experienced as a threat

to counter this threat there are ego-defense mechanisms such as repression, denial and projection

this is done unconsciously, we are not aware we do it, an act of ego preservation which let’s us deny our ‘badness’ and project it onto others {shadow projection}

shadow projection is involved in the psychiatric symptom of paranoia

most demanding part of Jungian analysis is confronting the shadow-the whole shadow complex is tinged with guilt and unworthiness and fears rejection

a result of suffering from this self-division is feeling flat and listless and life becomes meaningless

Jerry The God Within You A Prayer For You



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Re: reoccurring themes

Katchi,
One other thought before I head to the gym for one of my thrice weekly workouts {physical fitness has been a part of my lifestyle for the past 33 years}.

I doubt there are many if any at all of the archetypal discoveries that can be added to that Jung has no already presented. But cultural aspects may be a different thing. One criticism for the limitations of Freudian psychology was due to Freud's limited introduction to various levels of people on a social/economic scale. Freud's primary practice as a psychologist was limited to the wealthy, elite in Vienna, especially women who suffered from what Jung called a social induced fad aliment. On the other hand Jung worked with many different peoples on the social/economic scale and thus explored the wider possibilities {and thus his wider discoveries}. We know he even worked with homosexuals. But what experience did he have with Africans, African Americans or other people with dark skin {I may be asking a question that has a simple answer}? The archetypes would be the same since the origins of mankind, archetypes, are to be found within all humans. But could the cultural difference affect the dream or the psyche? Would it make a difference in the dream of a black woman who dreams of a black man on an archetypal scale? Joseph Campbell spoke of the Black Madonna or Dark Goddess as a significant archetypal symbol of transition in a man's dream. In fact I had such a dream of Kali just at a time I was undergoing a major transition in my life. This is a feminine archetype that possesses great powers to affect the psyche. Could there be the same associations to to your High John as with my Kali dream?
Inquiring minds need to know.

Jerry The God Within You A Prayer For You




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Re: reoccurring themes

I will definitely check that book out. You've given me plenty to ponder. I'm a bit curious, though, of the focus on what I spoke upon waking more than the elements inside the dream. Also, none if the characters in my dream posed any type if threats. Actually, they seemed helpful and pleasant. Even the food turned out better than I thought it would. My concern was over the suggestiveness of the woman towards the place, and why she and the man always appear somewhere in each dream. It was suggested that these could very well be spiritual guides (even as a cop, the guy wasn't there to arrest me, but make me confront the situation as opposed to running away from it, like I was trying to do.) Antagonizing, evil, or threatening dreams for me are extremely rare, and these recurring characters are extremely common. Which makes me wonder if I am the shadow? Is that possible?

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Re: reoccurring themes

Katchi,
Let me respond to your last post and then to the prior response. I apologize for mt lengthily response but since I now have the time I find myself saying more about the dream as it applies to the dream post.

I didn't sense the dream was a negative dream as such from the beginning. It was as much a statement of your personality type. That is, on the surface. "My concern was over the suggestiveness of the woman towards the place, and why she and the man always appear somewhere in each dream."

The place is you and the place you are in at this 'place' in your life. The man is your masculine attributes of being an 'overly giving person'. I don't see the men as spiritual guides but guides to the inner conflicts that the 'giving' aspects present in your waking life. I am looking at your personality of being a giving person as a defense mechanism {you are compensating outwardly for what you need inwardly}. I may be wrong but my sense of the dream as well as my own life experiences point to this*. Let's go back to the dream {not only am I now trying to emulate Jung I am using his words}. Especially since we have established a few aspects about you and your life.


Food is emotional nourishment. Your quest is for emotional nourishment. What you do as a 'giver' is watch others enjoy the emotional nourishment you give for them. Yet you 'deny' wanting and 'accepting food. This would be self denial of the inner resources. Fishing and shopping is for wholeness you seek {fish is even a symbol for wholeness}. When you 'give' you are also 'giving' to yourself, compensating for what is lacking in your inner being. You have yet to 'acquire' the emotional nourishment you seek.

As a 'street vendor' your job is to sell yourself and in dreams those are commodities you sell to yourself. Those commodities, in my sensing and as a deeper reflection as to what the dream is focused, is the compensating of the inner with your outer personality {which in Jungian psyche are opposites}. In Jungian psyche 'the shadow inevitably comes to possess qualities opposite those of the persona'. Beyond the aspects of 'High John' {sorry for the confusion but I am trying to establish for myself other possibilities beyond the norm of Jungian psyche} this could be the primary focus of the dream. I sense that.

The woman was from NOLA talking about the NOLA culture. I see two aspects to this, French, a foreign land, and African American {which was brought home with the suffering of black people much more so than whites during Katrina}. The foreign land would be the foreign aspects that have yet to be discovered about yourself {shadow?}. The vegetable stew is the stew you have created in your life. The carry out bag is what needs to be brought out about the inner self, but it has a lid. You have left this aspect hidden.

In your unconscious actions to 'leave this hidden' {the ego does this as a defense mechanism so not to have to confront the painful truth}. She grabs your face {a symbol for the ego persona}
"aw, naw, you finna taste some of dis now!"

'She', your unconscious dream, is attempting to communicate the inner self that desires/needs emotional nourishment. To realize you are compensating for inner desires/needs would be 'wonderful' since it would help the healing of what is lacking inside. Such realizations can be life changing. And because you are at that mid point of the mid life thing it is only ordinary for such changes to be made. Physically, psychologically and spiritually.

Prior to all this {in the dream}, the actual opening of the dream which would provide the primary subject the dream is trying to 'deliver' {post office}, you are waiting to be 'get ahead' {compensating what is 'behind' in your unconscious self} and be 'certified' as the King of the Night, the outward rewards that you compensate in your outer life. With your 'giving' personality you are unconsciously seeking to compensate for what is lacking in your inner self. This would more likely go back to childhood and earlier life experiences.

I believe this is what this dream and the other dream is 'primarily' trying to communicate.

But we have established that you are happy with your 'giving' personality, that the tone of the dreams is not threatening. This may be a 'facade' because of your very strong personality. Or it could be your early life experiences were not so much 'depriving' as they are learning experiences. in that light there would likely be experiences where proper emotional nourishment may have been lacking but not greatly so. Or in lieu of the nourishment normally expected/required there were experiences that compensated for those with enriching experiences of other kinds. As an example, child growing in a family of perform artists may not get 'ALL' of the love and acceptance needed but the experiences related to the 'art' would compensate for that. You notice I am using the word compensation a lot.

The task then would be to determine if in fact there was something early on that form your personality that is now being compensated for in adulthood. This is usual stuff for most people, I know it was for me. And when I finally realized this, well let's say the taste in my mouth was 'bursting with flavor', it tasted so good. And when did this come about in my life? It began when I was 42.



*To comment on my personal experiences. I have a female friend who has a personality much like yours. She is a 'giver' on a supreme level but in being such she cause so many 'misfortunes' in her own personal life. I know her life fairly well but there are childhood experiences that I do know about, experiences I know are a reason for her personality type. There was an experience with her a few years ago that demonstrated something even deeper that went beyond her personality of a giver. We broke off our friendship after that and have been trying to reconcile it once again. Slowly since i feel to enter into her life all at once, and as it was previously would do harm.

I have mentioned often my 'intuitive' abilities. Beyond those abilities in working with dreams I possess an ability to read people on initial contact I have problems remembering other things, the color of their hair or eyes, even names. But I can see beneath the surface. This is the intuitive ability we all possess, some people more than others. Developing this 'natural' skill is something I believe on can do if there is a real attempt to do. I know it has been quite beneficial for me in my business life as well as personal.


Comments on Your Previous Post
WOW! I am reading this post and just now realized the part about being around 'giving people'. I must say your words about "All my life I have been around givers and teachers and people who shared" hit the mark with my own words about 'enriching experiences of other kinds. Not that it is a new concept {I have no illusions about such discoveries} but that it was apart of your existence. I can see where these influences would have an affect on your psyche despite any childhood experiences that may have dented your well being {discovering what those are would be the task at hand}.

I understand your experiences as a public servant having worked as in public health as a codes inspector with the health department in Nashville for 13 years. Those experiences were invaluable, providing people experience that can't be bought.

Also there is the similar experience with 'capital enterprise' we share. I was a contractor for the past 34 years having started a fence construction business part time in 1978 and while working with the health department. That business now supports my son and his family. I think we both can say the two experiences combined provides an appreciation for both.
I'll have to tell you my story where a high school teacher turned my life around. He was African American. He was 'murdered' by his son for insurance money in the 1980s, in another post.

Experience is wisdom.

I think we went over the High John/shadow stuff. I am curious to what extend Jung had with 'Africans' of any nationality and the cultural affect it may have on dreams. Could it affect archetypal aspects? If a house is a 'fixed' symbol for the dreamer, so too the archetypal cave would have provided the same safe environment for early man. We so identify with our vehicles, was there such identifications with horses as a symbol for the dreamer before the car {car usually symbolize the direction we are going in life, among other associations with the dreamer and the vehicle}? I think you will agree book learning is very important but actual experience is much more valuable. I have studied Jungian psyche for 20 years now but the actual hands on experience in working with dreams has been the most educational.

To your comments about your writing. I believe one function of dreams is to expose this aspect of the psyche to dreamer so to lead them to it. The muse, that thing in life that is the 'bliss'. I 'preach' to anyone who will listen the importance of following your bliss. My oldest grandson started college this year and was trying to determine what to study. I reminded him of the bliss factor {something he has heard a thousand times from me}. He seems to have taken it to heart.

You state your 'giving and receiving' has not been 'equal' as of late. Could this be the call of the muse? It does seem to have been an important part of your evolution when you were in Oakland, what place does it have now? The hero/heroine of myth is on a search and no matter the metaphors used to express the experience in any story the ultimate search is for the spiritual self. One aspect of the spiritual is the creative. We give of ourselves by creating art, writing, painting, poetry, even things outside the muse that give meaning to the individual life. At mid life when we begin to reflect {in earlier stages of life we looked ahead} meaning in life becomes important and a part of our search. I found bliss when I began designing my Myths-Dreams-Symbols website {self taught} and working with dreams. Doing this brought me to my Individuation, going deep into my own psyche and reflecting on my childhood, discovering the underlying reasons for my propensity to 'run away' from relationships in adulthood.
Joseph Campbell's life was dedicated to this bliss factor Campbell is my spiritual teacher and responsible for my taking on Jung and dreams}. Jung also pointed to this vital aspect, naming the spiritual as a natural aspect of the psyche.

Could it be it is the dream is 'calling you to your bliss'? Take a look at Campbell's Monomyth, the stages in the hero adventure and see if they correspond with your journey. Not all of course, they tend to be repetitive and applicable according to the stage of life you are in.

I think we have gone over about everything. Working with you on this dream has especially been educational and I want to thank you for sharing your story. We have established a lot but the last 'con' about the inequality of giving and receiving is what you want to work through. That and of course whatever there may be that was unequal in early life. I don't we established this inequality as a prime reason for these dreams. Of course now I think we can say it is.

Jerry The God Within You A Prayer For You



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Re: reoccurring themes

Jerry:
You have given me innumerable things to contemplate and invaluable information to synthesis pass my inner denial that the "sharing is caring" menatilty can be extemely draining. The more I think about your words, all I can think in response is 'why do I have to make my own soup and share it, too? Why can't someone make soup for me sometimes?' I agree that I have been suffering from a malnourishment that even my psyche recognizes as stifling, all the while trying to make sure others are fed. But I don't have to go all the way back to my childhood to understand the issue. Truly, most of the issues sprang up in my adult life when I was confronted with the harshness of very bad choices.
Everyday I have been trying to deal with those psychological effects. And they have been hidden and well concealed. No one seems to realize my discontent (blisslessness.) And while I'm not 'unhappy', I'm not unhealthy.
I guess it's time to take the lid off and taste 'dis now'!

Til we meet again...
--Katchi

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Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} suthern gul

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