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Re: Struggle with sorceress

Jerry,

I continue to be very impressed with your insight. The amount of information you've gleaned from my dream is almost amazing to me. And the sensation of being totally transparent, or of being read like an open book, can sometimes be a little disconcerting! But I signed up for that when I posted symbols sent by unconscious psyche on your site, didn't I? :-)

Maybe I'll start from the end of your message and try to answer all your questions that way. Actually, I want to apologize first, if this message is just too long - and please let me know if so. I want to answer all your questions, but I know you have other dreams to read. So I'll just emphasize how much I'm going to have left unsaid (!) when I post this reply. :-)

So apart from that, the first thing I want to say is that I'd definitely buy your book! So I hope you'll post a notification on your web site when it becomes available. Maybe you could even offer an arrangement to the people who visit your site, to select a copy autographed by you. I'm not joking! I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one who'd appreciate that.

During the years I've had many dreams about houses and cars, btw, and naturally I agree with you about what they represent. I even think Jung said something along those lines in Man and His Symbols. I'd just add that in my own dreams, it sometimes seems that cars are more likely to represent ego, and houses can kind of get supra-personal sometimes, but again, that's just a general tendency in my own dreams. And I definitely want to read Anna's and Graces dreams now, to see what insights you've distilled from those.

But to answer your questions, first of all, about my mother: Basically, she never grew up (her own mother was the culprit, IMHO). Many of her sisters still have anxiety attacks in their 70s, while my grandmother, who was like a truck who ran over everyone and everything to get her own way, passed away over twenty years ago. She played the organ at church and was very sweet to everyone there, but when she was at home she could fly into a profanity-laced rage instantly when things didn't suit her. I grew up with two brothers and no sisters, completely without a balanced female example in my life (not that the males were any better - they definitely weren't). But I definitely paid a painful price for all that during my early romantic forays.

As a young person I was an overachiever, athletically and academically, and I'm surely not going to list all that I did here. But I think
it could be important to note that I attended the US AF Academy for two years; Gerald Ford nominated me to attend when he was still president. I left with an honorable discharge after two years, looking elsewhere for fulfillment.

Have you read Siddhartha by Herman Hesse? I think that like Siddhartha, I was determined to go my own way. And after many years, and dreams about returning to USAFA (that's what the people who lived there called it), I have to say that going one's own way (= following one's bliss) is much more than 'worth it' - it's absolutely essential, in my opinion. But to over-summarize: I felt like going to the Academy and most of my other 'achivements' - were more of a feather in my mother's cap (my father was an enlisted man in the Air Force) than my own. I couldn't continue at that point to live my life for my mother, or for the approval of anyone else for that matter; my decision to leave USAFA was visceral, mostly unconscious, and extremely powerful.

Ok, fast forwarding to more recent events: I discovered Jung and Campbell a year or so before I met Ann. You're right about Campbell being an easier read btw! I've always considered Jung the analyst, and Campbell the synthesist, bringing many traditions and ways of thinking together, and showing that at root they are one, whereas Jung was blazing new trails in his examination of the psyche - but also finding a lot of ancient wisdom in the Eastern traditions).

It was like being born again, Jerry; so many things about me were brand new discoveries, as I was observing new 'budding' attributes of my personality regularly. Having started with Man and His Symbols, and having read about anima/animus issues, I was very deliberately trying to discover the most sensitive and more feminine aspects of my personality, things I'd repressed without any intention of doing so, and for too long. I'd always focused on the outer, observable world, but now my inner world was asserting itself, just as I started to seek it in earnest.

I think it's important to note that it was a conscious effort on my part to discover my feminine side. But I reached the decision to do that only after dreams I had after I started reading Jung, dreams that brought out some anima issues in a way that was so vivid and emphatic that I couldn't misunderstand the deficient aspect in my personal development. I 'thought' I was understanding Jung as I read the book, but it was really the vivid dreams I started having, that clinched it for me.

So - soon afterwards I met Ann, and was very impressed. Not only was she living life as if she cherished every moment, but she also had PhD in psychology and seemed to have - at least at that time - far more knowledge of the psyche than I did. I hoped that we'd become friends, and it seemed to happen spontaneously. In a way, I relied on her superior knowledge as we began to have some short conversations about Campbell and Jung during the lunch meetings I mentioned in an earlier post.

So let's see if I can answer your question about the inner and outer sorceress. It might be hard to explain if you never had a waking vision like the one I described, so I'd like to describe it a little further.

But it was so far beyond anything I'd ever experienced, that I don't have words to describe it. And because I had to look away and 'choke it off' (i.e. repression) so that I wouldn't lose control of myself in a public place, moments of extreme sensitivity kept welling up spontaneously for at least a month afterward. I thought that the experience - i.e. the vision - was a gift from Ann, but later I thought it seemed more that I was responsible for bringing up something precious from the depths of my own being.

The day I had the vision, Ann cried too. It was definitely a shared experience, but she didn't have any idea about my vision, or have one of her own - I had to explain that to her later. But as I said earlier, she did excuse herself to go to the ladies' room for ten minutes before we went back to the office. And on the way back, she said she was glad we were friends, but she also made it clear that she was not interested in romance. She told me that she'd had an affair once, that it had ended her marriage, and that she didn't intend to repeat that mistake.

But please note that I'd never brought up anything remotely like romance, so I was a little surprised when she said that. She'd never made a personal disclosure remotely that revealing to me either. So I gave her my word that I'd never try to introduce a romantic element into our friendship, or try to be more than a friend to her.

But I also allowed myself to think she was starting to like me in a deeper way. Since she had an advanced credential in psychology, I always assumed that Ann could read me like a book, so I never tried to hide any facts or feelings from her. But there are definitely things a sensitive person doesn't bring up, such as feelings of affection, without some kind of invitation - but that invitation came, in time...

In any event, the vision was (and still is in my mind) a strong validation of the path I was walking, but it also was a profound bonding experience that seemed to affect us both. Ann began to tell me about the deep hurts in her life, because in her words she didn't have another friendship that generated the insights that ours did. She called me a kindred spirit, and told me she cherished our friendship.

But she had a cold side too; you were so right about that! After a while, I noticed that if I dropped by her office to say hi, I'd tend to see her cold side, but that if I just waited for her, she would come and share the most intimate details of her life with me, without the slightest prompting on my part.

I had been reading her favorite book, Care of the Soul by Thomas Moore, and it opened my eyes a little further along the lines of Jungian thought (Moore studied under James Hillman, who studied under Jung). And I thought the book helped me to understand Ann better as well. One day it coalesced for me: I thought I'd figured out some important things about her, and was starting to understand some of the apparent contradictions in her behavior.

That same morning, she came to me and asked if we could go for a drive before work started, and we did. By then, I'm sure she knew that I loved her, though I would never speak of it - and she knew that too. That day was one of her 'cold days,' and she seemed to think it was necessary to rule out the possibility of romance for a second time. So she started by asking me what had been troubling me, and I asked in turn if she was sure she wanted to know how I felt about her. She didn't hesitate when she said yes.

So I told her what I thought Thomas Moore had helped me to see, that even while she was a child, she had died a thousand times for her father's approval, to hear him express his love for her just once, and that I knew she'd do it another thousand times if her were still alive. I said it was the most holy example of human life in my experience, that it staggered me to think about it, and that sometimes I just didn't know what to do with all of that. I told her I loved her deeply and truly, and that I would die, if necessary, just so she could go on living.

I was moved by a lot of unconscious energy that day, and I went on to say that I thought she'd looked for affection from other guys to replace the relationship she didn't have with her father, that she'd been become promiscuous, and that she'd eventually become cynical about men as a result.

I even said (like a fool), "Am I getting all this right?" And she bravely said yes. I really regretted saying that and tried to apologize the next day - but she waved it aside as if it were nothing - and I'll get to that in a minute.

The fact is that this had started as one of Ann's cold days! She knew I loved her, but to Ann that meant only sexual attraction, and she was not about to have sex with me, so she wanted to get away from the office to clarify something that was already painfully clear to me. But now she was crying again. She was truly stunned. "This is what I've always wanted a man to say to me," she said. Then less than a minute later, she said the same words again. I didn't touch her that day; she touched me three times.

She told me that she thought I'd just wanted to have sex with her, and she said that every man she'd ever known had wanted to have sex with her. Please note I'm not denying that I wanted to join with her, but what I told her then was the truth: I told her that I was A true friend, not just HER true friend, that I wanted good things FOR her, not FROM her. It went on for a while. It was a good talk.

The next day she came into my office with tears in her eyes to thank me again. That's when I tried to apologize for suggesting that she'd been promiscuous, but she waved it away with a smile, as if it were nothing - as if she was glad I understood without judging. She said she'd come to see me because now she was afraid that we'd become lovers after all, and that it would ruin our friendship, so I told her that I would always be her friend (I was surprised by the change in her attitude, and that's all I could think of on the spur of the moment).

Ok, I could just go on and on. And in case you think I already have, let me emphasize that I haven't really even started! I could write a book about this; nevertheless, I'm going to stop now.

What I'm trying to do is answer your question about the inner sorceress and the outer sorceress. And I think that part of the answer is that Ann was part of me. Just as I began to integrate my own shadow, I found the most remarkable insights (this story is not the best incident with Ann, but it’s definitely the most relevant). Wherever my 'inner goddess' was, Ann wasn't far from that.

But when, with extreme cruelty, Ann threw our friendship away, I began to doubt myself seriously (almost always a good practice). Had I really made all the progress I thought I’d made, or was it all just an illusion of love?

In the dream, I definitely had some magic inside me, some insight won at the cost of great struggles with myself, resolved in the wake of other painful separations, and she took it from inside of me and left me empty before she discarded me.

So… those are my thoughts about the inner and outer sorceress. Now I’m going to go back and cut the non-essentials from this post!

I want to add that I always thought we’d get together after our split, and resolve things. We had to do that a couple of times during our relationship, and I was sure we would do it again. It was only when she refused to speak with me that I knew it would never happen. So it became incumbent on me to continue my walk alone, but it also freed me to do that (well I was always free, but I felt free then). I think Campbell says that’s the way it is (the solitary path) in Hero with a Thousand Faces, and I think he was right.

So in a way, the moment when she refused to meet with me freed me to pursue enlightenment again. Before that, I wondered what had happened. Had I said something that she had misunderstood? One day, after the story I just told, I was able to show her how her father had once apologized to her for everything he'd done and hadn't done, and she hadn’t realized it. That’s when I started to see I wasn’t ‘less’ than Ann. And she cried again, told me that she was so grateful for all I’d done for her that she didn’t know how to repay me.

And one day she pulled her pants down, and (partially) her panties as well, to show me a tattoo that she had that she said was inspired by me during a conversation we’d had about Taoism. That was another day I didn’t touch her - which is not to say I didn’t want to.

Oh well Jerry, I have to apologize again for all these details. They’re all so interwoven in my mind that it’s hard to separate one from another sometimes.

I’ll just say in closing that I was molested at age twelve, that it seemed to cause a mental block regarding my feminine side, and that it was the cause for a lot of the sexual difficulties that followed. It’s difficult to say more.

But I hope I’ve answered at least your important questions, and thank you again for your amazing healing work.

Best Regards!

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Re: Struggle with sorceress

Anon,
Sorry not to respond sooner. I've been consumed by putting this workshop together, I'll have it done by this weekend and will take a good look at your post.

Jerry

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Re: Struggle with sorceress

Anon,
You don't have to apologize for the long response. One thing I know the Forum does is let people speak what is on their mind. When they do that they give thought to things they seldom think about and by doing that indulge in self therapy. Of course you are different in you have given much thought to this. But we all need a n outlet and by speaking the words I believe is good therapy.

Plus I tend to say a lot in my posts also. I can never give a simple interpretation, no matter how short the dream.

I sensed there was a conflict with your mother. In a way she was an outer sorceress in she possessed negative qualities of the sorceress. Vampiric blood is poisonous to all members of the Sorcery Lines and your mother was a vampire in her own right. Able to change forms at will.

Of course your recent encounter with the sorceress was Ann. I dare say you were drawn to her not only because of the attractive qualities she possessed {physical and mental} but possibly an unconscious attractiveness because of an intuitive sense. She in actuality possessed similar qualities of your mother, able to change forms at will. Plus there is the similar experience of expressing your love {naturally as a child to a mother} and being rejected by both your mother and Ann. Deep wounds early in life as well as later in life. Thankfully you had already discovered Jung and the later life experience did not destroy you. In many such cases it would have with 'lesser' men.

I want to take a minute to share a little of my personal history on a couple of topics since you have been so brave to share yours. On the subject of the intuitive mind. I an a very strong believer in the innate senses with intuitiveness being one we can actually enhance. I am an extrovert and have always trusted those things I 'sensed' as concrete. Whether this is purely inherent quality or was partly a product of distrust because of how my father treated me {abandonment} I am sure. But looking back at early life and the introverted way I lived {feelings less than other children because I was poor} I know this quality is a part of who I am if no other reason because of my early life experiences.

But there was a change later in life after I came out from forced introverted life {it was a black school teacher at Hume Fogg who changed that-who was incidentally murdered by his son in the 80s}. After 'coming out' I was able to be my true self, at least personality wise. I carried with me that sensing attitude and still possess it {show me the facts}. But after working as an environmentalist with the Metro Health Department for 13 years {a job the school teacher helped me to get} for 13 years {after my military service} I gained valuable people skills. Along with the many 'relationships' I had both romantically and otherwise I 'learned' people. Later in my 30s I realized I had this ability to 'sense' people from the inside [whereas before it was purely outward}. When I discovered Campbell in '92 I discovered what I possessed was intuitive abilities. When I began studying Jung and dreams {I consider myself an 'intuitive Jungian'} I realized I had a 'knack' at understanding dreams, long before I actually acquired the skills I now possess in analyzing and interpreting dreams. I thought for a long time I needed to guard against believing I had 'extra-ordinary' skills in interpreting dreams but now I know it is true. One only need to look at the track record at the Dream Forum to verify this. And I credit this ability because I possess both intuitive skills as well as personal experience/people skills. If I am not mistaken when you are able to acquire the opposite senses of your natural type you have fulfilled one aspect of Individuation.

But there is more history to my intuitive abilities I feel relevant. All of your siblings were brothers whereas I grew up with three sisters. From the age of 6 until 18 I lived with my mother and three sisters. Such a strong feminine influence for 18 years surely had an affect/effect {it both was a result as well as an influence}.

And then there were the 'romantic' relationships. I know now what was occurring was 'looking for love in all the wrong places'. But during those experiences it was never a demeaning experience toward women, just the opposite. I felt I needed to share my positive self {perhaps feeling it so strongly after my coming out}, I wanted so much to please women. Of course the pleasing aspect was part of wanting to fulfill what I 'felt I never did' with my father {the child blaming oneself} but I think there was more to it. I was connecting to the inner feminine, perhaps the influence of natural law, balancing what was needed to find wholeness {Jung: we are all meant to be whole}. And of course the sex was a fixation, that being the Freudian contribution to understanding the great forces this 'animal' quality had on life. By the age of 30 I had grown out of the sexual fixations but not the need for to fulfill the father I never had. That only happened after I discovered Campbell and Jung and began my inward journey. It took nearly 12 years to come to full grips with that, although there are still moments when I can still see and feel for that 'little boy' I was.

Back to the present. And your dream.
I like the expression 'back to the dream'. I understand that is what Jung insisted on when analyzing a patient. When I get a response to my interpretation i like to go back to the dream and see how every thing plays out with any new information I may gain from the response. This helps me with discovering patterns, not only in the dreams but in the dreamers' personal lives. Both should coincide, the dream pattern to the waking life pattern of behavior. Often I see personality traits in a dream and I try to verify this as well. When I do write my book I want to express what I have learned independent of Jung {of course using his concepts and expanding on what I believe is beyond that, or beyond what I know of his 'voluminous' works}.

In the dream its starts out 'you are in a large house, definitely not my own'. Two points to this opening statement. One is this wording before the mention of the sorceress {which is the primary 'villein/negative emotional conflict in the dream}. A house definitely not your own. That suggest 'being possessed' by something other than natural aspects. When I look at a dream the first thing that is stated is what I believe to be the primary message of the dream. Even without the mention of the sorceress this statement alone would require me to look for a 'possession' aspect within your life. Just with a dream where there is a unnamed/unknown child being the dreamer at the age or time frame stated {or inferred} in the dream, this is what I believe to be a 'truism' in dreams. And as it turns out this is true with your dream and your life {these are the type things I want to focus on in my book}.

But your opening statement goes further. The first two paragraphs are actually the opening statement but the very first gets to the central negative theme that is the 'emotional conflict'. The pill would be the 'spell' this inner/outer sorceress has over you. Your statement not only describes the central conflict but also aspects of the battle you have waged with this 'sorceress'. "I’d already defeated two of her subordinates" is a phrase I take to mean you have already confronted two of these feminine sources, having encountered and taking on the task of reconciling both the relationship with your mother {inner} and Ann {outer} sorceresses. This is not common {such a statement describing the battle} in many dreams. But few people have discovered what you have discovered in your study of Jungian psyche. You were at first 'hiding' from this but possess the courage and discipline of the 'hero' to take on this task of confronting and reconciling your demons.

Then the scene changes {fitting with Jung's second stage of the dream structure, the plot or development of the 'story'. You are on the floor which I believe points to 'foundations' of the personal psyche. You are confronting the inner sorceress, your mother. The clue to this inner aspect would be the dream language "which is completely unchanged by having been inside me." These early life influences are still 'intact'.

But you have confronted this inner sorceress and have begun to remove the importance to her influence at 'all levels'. Here we see a distinct reference of confronting to both aspects of the inner and other sorceresses {all levels}. The freedom to leave {which could also easily be interpreted as 'the freedom to live', as in the 'monomythic journey'} is a statement to both aspects. But fears remain {normal for the ego self to feel}.

The plot is developing. The dream starts out with what is the primary emotional conflict and the people/things involved with that. And now the story develops to what is happening with that conflict.

Then the dream turns to the third stage, the culmination or new actions in the dream. The outer sorceress becomes a focus of the dream, but with the influence of the inner {carrying a very small red car “around my body”}. Your mother is out of your life as a 'conscious' controlling agent. But you continue to carry the unconscious influences and this is where the outer sorceress comes into play {arms wrapped the outside of the car's body}. The central battle is still an inner battle {left it inside her house}, the influences still having an unconscious attachment to the outer world. Anything on the right is of the ego world {the left is the hero path}.

This outer sorceress has put you in an 'inferior' position {car to bicycle}. This is what love can do to you, as well as what a strong feminine power has done to you {childhood}. Home is your inner home and no shoes not being grounded to proper principles {at least temporarily when it comes to be influenced later in life}. But you have the 'helping hands' of Jung and Campbell to guide and support you}. The basket contains developed principles 'put' together by the inner work you have done. The left side of the basket {things you hold on to} is the hero journey, the path you have chosen to take, the principles you live by and hold on to.

Now the final stage of the dream, Jung's lysis. This can be a resolution or result of the dream actions {reflecting the true condition of the dreamer}. There seems to be things left unresolved although things are under control {remember, this is your condition at the time of the dream}. The affects/effects of the relationship with Ann {she remained in the house while I fled} are still present. The inner feminine, your anima, is OK despite the emotional conflicts {both inner and outer}. But until you understand the full force of the 'sorceresses' there is an impending urgency to know and understand. Plus, and this is important, there is another aspect now in play {the real urgency}. At the age of 54 you are in the autumn of life and although there have been conflicts with the sorceress there is a desire for the feminine in your life. The strong winds of love perhaps, once touched twice affected. There are probably still unresolved issues with your mother and definite issues remaining about Ann. But having gained the knowledge of combating these issues, and the archetypal influences of the natural life, autumn is upon us {literally, its almost October} and time is short [as is life}.

There are always other aspects to a dream that have meaning. I've touched on {on a single long examination} on what seems to stick out. I could look at it again and see something else {mostly in association to what I have already provided}. As Jung stated, a dream can have new meaning years later.

A full range of emotions for sure. Getting back to the dream with the added information you provided gives new insights to the dream. And of course what ever the dream is saying is reflective of the true condition. The great news comes toward the end of the dream. You have placed your confidence in the hero journey {as have I, and live by those specific principles}. With that the helping hands of fate on your side {Karma is a great ally} and what ever remains unresolved will be resolved. No one can reach perfection but we can be as whole as we let ourselves be. The hero journey is as good a path in achieving that wholeness as any I have come across. And like you I have read much of what is offered. With our belief system we merely need to 'let go and use the force'. The hardest work has already been done, we have discovered that inner SELF and its is now in control.

And you were worried about being long winded.

Jerry



Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 63 Space Coast, Fla.

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