Dream Analysis/Interpretation by Dream Analyst
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Jimmy's Post 'The Hot Tub Turtles'

Jimmy,
I've started this thread/post because my last posts are nor viewable on the thread we were posting. Here is my latest response to the original post

Jimmy,

If you really want to discover any issues that are not conscious then a self examination is required. Jung's Individuation Process is the route I took and suggest as an excellent way to make such discoveries. Not only does this self psychology reveal unconscious issues it also can lead to discoveries related to creative and spiritual aspects. It is from these aspects true meaning in life comes, finding those inner qualities that make life worth living. Creative aspects, a type work or effort you love doing most, serving in a capacity that fits your soul and not what society dictates. From the depths of the darkness of the unconscious lies the true self, the person who you bare and why you are that person as well as the person you were meant to be.



You say you have suspicions. Is there anything in your childhood that would cause such suspicions? Our foundations, especially the earliest years of life are where we obtain the ingredients that form our personality and general attitudes. A lack of good parenting {even if you had a prosperous life} where a parent or parents did not provide the required nurturing is often the basis for most emotional issues in later life. Traumatic experiences as a child of any kind also will leave impressions on the psyche that can alter proper personal growth. Even a lack of love for a sensitive personality can become an issue. A very deep examination of childhood is necessary, beyond what is perceived as positive experiences, going to the moments you remember and examining them for important content. Memories are often formed because there was something 'important' about the experiences.



We must also consider genetics, what DNA we are born with that could alter normal psyche behavior. Serial killers usually had terrible childhoods but not everyone who had a terrible childhood become serial killers {although there is often likely a 'disruption' of normal behavior necessary for proper personal growth}. If there is something you 'feel' that is not right and there is nothing from early life then genetic makeup could be possible. People who suffer chronic depression have emotional issues but the severity of their depression is a neurological disease, not just psychological.



This is where you begin and follow through in all stages of life {again the early years being the most important}. You are at an age where any negative issues will come up in personality, where unconscious energies take a lead in how you live your life. Life choices are not just random, they are affected if not dictated by early life formations. Although unrelated and/or chance events will affect these motivating energies will have an influence on how life plays out.



As for disruption of routine. My intent was to bring about recollection of the routine you had a s a younger person that would have changed when you moved away from Ireland/Scotland. That would go to childhood experiences that may not have been positive and may have changed when you moved. Has there been a noticeable change in your life by the move, one that may have helped with any negative imprinting from early life? Look at this and see what might be there.



You state you have been attempting to master lucid dreaming. How much knowledge do you have of dreams? Do you have any knowledge of dream psychology {what I practice} or Jungian psyche. I am not a big fan of lucid dreaming because it can get in the way of the natural aspects of sleep and dreams. Dreams are nature's tool to help heal the psyche {as the immune system is to the body the dream is to the psyche}. If the intent is to control your dreams so to 'play' then you are doing yourself a disservice and altering the natural intent of the dream. If you use lucid dreaming is aiding the healing process then you are using it properly. Anytime dreams are altered you risk psyche damage and possible psychological because when you go into the dark depths you are in unexplored realms. There are no such things as real demons, monsters etc. but illusionary demons in the mind are just as bad. They can be destructive and prevent self discovery and healing.



Normal sleep is also important including continuous sleep and not napping for short periods of time. We know all about the stages of sleep and REM sleep is known to be when we do most of our dreaming. Short circuiting this mechanism not only alters the natural psyche process but can be harmful physically. What affects the psyche affects the body, what the body experiences becomes a psyche event.





Let me analyze the dream again with the added information you have provided. I have found those who have any measure of exploration the deep psyche {including lucid dreaming} have dreams that reflect that exploration. The dream message is not so much altered but has a focus on something other than the usual energies in dreams. I take my analyzing of dreams seriously and my success in interpreting dream images/actions is, in my mind and from the *evidence, 'remarkable'. If there is explanation beyond my analyzing of a dream there is a good reason for it. I have had such experiences where my interpretation of the images/actions were proper but the application was not because of exploration of deep psyche energies by the dreamer. But even with that it usually doesn't alter the deeper issues. There is always something emotionally involved the images/actions point to, always.



* My Dream Forum is a catalog of my work. Ten plus years of analyzing dreams with responses. I have always experienced good success interpreting dreams {using basic Jungian concepts and an intuitive mind} but in the past couple of years my success has been nothing short of phenomenal. And as with everything I expose as truth I instruct people to read the posted dreams and see for themselves. For a quick examination of this I direct you to my Facebook page where I began posting the dreams from the forum. A developed intuitive mind is a metaphysical experiences, something beyond the norm but still explainable by objective reasoning. If it exists it is because natural created it. Just as with dreams being the healing mechanism I mentioned earlier.



Jerry

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 65 Cocoa, Fl

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Yes

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Re: Jimmy's Post 'The Hot Tub Turtles'

Jerry,
Thanks yet again for your response. Full of new avenues of thought. I've never explicitly followed the path of individuation though when I came across it the journey resonated with my own journeys. I have only started studying Jung in the past 12 months and only in this time have I been integrating his approaches to dream interpretation. I certainly find that much of his framework clicks with my own feelings on what lies beneath but of course it is easy for me to say this now since I have integrated so much of his thought into my own philosophy of the subconscious. Still I have much more in the way of integrating it into my dream work. I do not directly use the concepts in my own dreams often unless it is rather blatantly suggested to me by the content. When it has feels right I do get a lot out of the anima but strangely the perhaps more rich vein of the shadow I am yet to fully exploit though I am now forming the intention of returning to my backlog and digging through in search of some fruit from this concept. I imagine there is much I can gleam from it.
As for my suspicions I cannot recall anything as yet that justifies it only a certain shrewdness that a dismissal would be found to, as it has in so many such cases when it comes to the subconscious, foolish. It has been a very useful if a bit nervous (and perhaps this is a sign) a process since such content has such potential for undermining. I have found it very fruitful to play with it as a belief and to see what fruit it bears. I am seeing what will be revealed but as yet I am still digging. I feel that perhaps my shadow examination of my dreams may reveal more. So too may my forthcoming dreams since I have now arrived in canada where I am staying with my brother and tuis beginning a new phase of reconnecting with my family (it is the brother from the hot tub turtles dream). I have been thinking that it must be telling that only this brother turned up in my dream since I had another dream the week after this (in fact in response to an incubation as a consequence of this cross-interpretation ) in which both my brothers appeared which I can post here if it would be helpful and further this avenue of exploration?
And you know this interpretation of yours is extremely fascinating and fruitful for me as I have never really approached my dreams with a mind to family and early childhood though the first six years are of course the sponge years of our lives when it comes to the background/underground values and belief systems. So this is a very fruitful avenue I will be incorporating. I have no traumatic events that stand out at all in my mind from when I was a child. But of course this could again be related to my sensitive nature and for years I was far more of a rational in fact a paragon of rationality and had an underdeveloped emotional element until a couple of years ago. I was very rational and a dreamer seeing all things in terms of right and wrong and the best possible worlds. Only in the last couple of years have I explored the world of emotional intelligence and only in the past year have I rediscovered my sensitive nature and learned to love it rather than bury it neath a web of rationalisations of understanding other people's actions as a soothing mechanism for my emotions which while effective is rather invalidating for emotions. So whole I feel there was no trauma in my childhood I do feel like my sensitive nature was injured. I am moved to wonder about the source of this sensitivity now.
As for depression whilst I have experienced times of crisis at a couple of points in my life one when I was sixteen and another when I was twenty but having found the silver from the experiences I came back with my life enriched and do not have any problems with chronic depression.
I guess one change that I may have experienced in coming away from Ireland and Scotland is that by travelling by myself I have moved from my friends of Scotland and my family at home all of which are rather rational people I guess. My emotional side has been allowed to flourish and as part of my journey I have met up with my old friend from Scotland and now my eldest brother and I now am more perceptive I guess on the rational/emotional scale and see that rationality can do often be invalidating to emotions though it's logic of right and wrong be seductive that is not the currency of emotions and so I validate my emotional reactions and rather accept them far more which leads to an altogether more enriching social life for me since being sensitive i guess I do a lot more social computing as my feelings are triggered a lot more. I am thinking as I type here so this may sound like a ramble. There is a difference in my emotional and as a result social life which results in a far greater self love and acceptance whilst still understanding the intents of others and accepting them as well.
My encounters with lucid dreaming have led to me recording my dreams on and off for the past five or six years now. It is perhaps only in the last three that I have interpreted in any way and really in the past year that I have been delving into the theory in the area. I read an abridged version of Freud's interpretation of dreams two or three years ago and I this was where I became dazzled at the sheer creative genius of the subconscious and mesmerised at what it created every night and so began playing with interpretation using my heart gut and a dreamoods dream dictionary which I have found really useful. Before Jung though it was a rather playful approach of seeing what clicked with the symbols in the dictionary and my life or of others whose dreams I played with and seeing what story I could tease beneath the surface.
So the jungian theoretical framework has nothing short of blown my mind in the past year and opened so many paths of investigation. As for your methodology I have only started studying and attempting to apply it in the last few days since I encountered this website and found your page describing your method (which I have some questions about by the way nothing complex just a couple of bits im confused about but I'm not sure of this is the right place or time).
As for lucid dreaming I completely get what you mean about the playpen that lucid dreaming can become stunted and even counterproductive at but my intention had been (and indeed my practise in some lucid dreams) was to meet my subconscious and to engage in a joint operation at self-actualisation but ultimately it seems this intention is being fulfilled by my dream work more than any lucid dreaminging though I certainly owe a great debt of gratitude to lucid dreaming for setting me on this path.
I disagree about what you say about napping and consider mankind to be naturally biphasic if not polyphasic sleepers but I think I may be digressing and I think I agree about a regular cycle if not the form that this cycle must take
Thank you so much for your fascinating reply. I really appreciate you having yet another look at my dream and for all the help and advice you have taken the time to give me thus far.
Jimmy

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 23 now in canada (previously travelling Australia) but from Ireland

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Yes

How Did You Find the Dream Forum? Absolutely!

Re: Jimmy's Post 'The Hot Tub Turtles'

Jimmy,
I apologize for taking more time than promised for my reply but there are so many things to do with to little time to do them all. I thought after I retired I would have all the time in the world to work with dreams. But because of the task of caring for my community felines {and those I personally have} I often find myself overloaded with things to do. One thing about my retirement is I have no time to get bored.

To your latest response, one I thank you for because it was detailed and from the heart. I thrive on feedback and detailed response with true sincerity is the best I can get.

Jung's concepts are from the natural psyche. I have no formal education in Jungian psychology, my education being self learned over the past 23 years. I have an intuitive connection to his theories primarily because they are a natural part of all human psyche {and nature as a whole}. I began working with dreams on a serious level in the mid 90s and at that time Jung was still pretty much new to most internet travelers. Today it is Jungian psyche that has replaced Freudian misconceptions with all most all serious dream sites either Jungian based or using much of Jungian concepts without admitting it. The concept of the shadow is basically Jungian as is the anima/animus {although most all modern theory has its foundations in early concepts}. When you are self analyzing you are involved in the individuation process, that term being an official concept of psychology. Perhaps a better known term for individuation but not realized is 'going inward' or the inward journey. It is when the traveler seeks to know them-self better by dissecting all aspects of the inner self that it becomes a psychological journey. I started the process in 1992 {when I discovered Joseph Campbell} and have been engaged ever since {it is a life long process of self discovery}.

As for the academic application of Jungian theory when working with dreams, I have pretty much abandoned that and instead use the basics. I don't go looking for a shadow self but instead let it find me. The only concept I use on a regular basis is the anima/animus and that is because it is so prevalent in dreams. I don't try to explain the concepts either having the benefit of two Jungian based websites with Myths-Dreams-Symbols containing several hundred pages of content. I more often refer to these pages {linking to them} when I do note a Jungian concept with my intent to make understanding dreams as simple as possible. I believe doing this helps the dreamer understand my analysis/interpretation and allows them to see associations to their waking life. To state a dream image is your shadow requires either a detailed explanation or leaving them wondering what that dark side is all about. Jungian psyche is 'deep' and confusing to the mind that has not explored his concepts in depth. I do my best to simplify as much of my analysis as possible, articulating what I see within a dream in words that can be understood with only a degree in life and not psychology.

The importance of the childhood years. This is where I tend to side with Freud over Jung {Jung believing later experience in life having just as much or more importance}. We now know {a science Jung did not have access to} that the first three years of life are the most important in the formation of the psyche. It used to be thought that an infant is born with a limited capacity to learn. But that has changed and it is believed that by age nine personality is pretty much formed and the foundations for attitudes are set. Of course the Jungian archetypes provides us with a knowledge we all have preset instructions for our human life and with an understanding an infant is not only capable of learning from its environment, it thrives on it for basic understanding on what lies ahead. The psyche begins to form in the womb and its earliest experiences/influences become motivators for personality and attitudes for the rest of their life. When I use this as a part of my dream analysis I find it fits too perfectly not to have a sound basis for its application. Because all dreams do have at least two meanings/applications {a Jungian concept I totally agree with} I see these markers in the great majority of dreams. Whereas a dream is trying to help the dreamer understand the emotional conflict from yesterday's disagreement with a co-worker or family member, it is at the same time revealing the underlying reasons for the actions/re-actions by the dreamer and the developed attitudes and personality traits for them. I can not name a specific experience that stimulated a dream but I can discern the underlying reasons for the attitudes/traits for the emotional response. By naming those the dreamer most often can connect the dots and see all ends of what the possible meanings/applications are. Using this method has resulted in great success when I analyze dreams with the evidence of that success contained in the posted dreams at this Dream Forum. A 'rational' mind can see that evidence if they take the time to read the dreams, my interpretations and the responses to my analysis. Based on experience I truly believe that dreams are no longer a great mystery that is unsolved but instead messages from the psyche that cane be interpreted by anyone with a developed intuitive sense and a good many years of study of Jungian concepts. My mind is average at best {I don't believe in IQ tests as such} and if I can successfully analyze dreams anyone with the defined qualities/experience I noted can also.

You state in this last response something I feel is not only important in your self discovery but also a primary reason for your dream. Leaving the world you know and exploring the vast other possibilities opens the psyche to even greater things, within and with out. Not only is it a physical journey of 'worldly' discovery but also a psychological journey that stimulates self discovery. Leaving the known world behind to explore other worlds, this is exactly what individuation is and can be found in all mythologies as the 'hero journey' {Joseph Campbell's Monomyth}. When one participates in a journey of self discovery they become the hero/heroine in their own life. As Campbell stated, "the dream is a personal myth, myth the universal dream". The emotional energies depicted in dreams are connected to the universal energies of all mankind if not nature itself. They are references to the archetypal energies we all possess with the personal energies not only influenced by the environment in early growth but also by the innate influences of the universal energies. Both are motivators for the development for individual personality and attitudes with individual DNA a determiner what path the person ultimately takes{try stating this in analyzing dreams and watch people go for the door in utter confusion} .

A brief comment about lucid dreaming, pretty much what i have already stated. Lucid dreaming can be a great tool if used properly. But when used as a 'play thing' it can dilute the natural intent of dreaming. Although the natural process will eventually come through {just as with losing sleep and making up for dream time when you sleep again, proven science research} it will take longer to do so and any lost time is essential in proper development of the psyche. There has been a lot of research into lucid dreaming but there is a lot more to do before we know exactly how it affects dreams and dreaming in general.

Your words 'sheer creative genius' is perhaps the ultimate result of working with ones dreams. Campbell's lesson for life was to 'follow your bliss', find that thing in life you love best and make it your career. Most often this is a creative aspect. Besides my great interest and involvement in working with dreams I am also self educated in web design. My web site Myths-Dreams-Symbols is my creative self and has been an outlet in expressing my true self {and part of my process of individuation}. My more recent website the Power of Dreams is also an aspect of my creative self and a condensed version of MDS. When you discover your bliss you put yourself on a plane beyond the norm and as Campbell stated 'doors open where there were none previously'. The ultimate journey as well as discovery in life is spiritual and through the creative aspect of 'giving' you are involved in a spiritual endeavor. When you realize you are on that journey, and after you have traveled a path of self discovery long enough to 'know', the next aspect of the journey is to reach others what you have learned. I see my analyzing/interpreting dreams along with my dream websites as tools in sharing what I have discovered and learned. A spiritual endeavor that gives not only to the other but back to the self.

Jerry


Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 65 Cocoa, Fl

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Re: Jimmy's Post 'The Hot Tub Turtles'

Jerry,

Thanks yet again for your informative response Jerry. It is always a pleasure to see a person fill their life with fulfillment and love. I am delighted to hear about your spiritual journey leading into helping others (myself included!) as well as into creative endeavours. It is rather beautiful.
I like your non academic jungian approach. It seems one of the more common pitfalls of the jungian approach is that it is seductive to look for the big dreams for the noumenal archetypal touch in every dream but this can end up being a false hype. Letting the dream speak for itself is no doubt the best approach and I definitely agree about the anima it is a concept which really revealed a lot when I came across it and bore a lot of fruit in my dreamwork. As for the shadow this was also a big revelation but it has not borne as much fruit. In fact I've been tempted since speaking to you here to delve back into my dreams and explore with an eye to shadow elements for no doubt they are the parts I would naturally not want to focus on whereas the anima is a lot more flowery and seductive and invites exploration.
"I do my best to simplify as much of my analysis as possible, articulating what I see within a dream in words that can be understood with only a degree in life and not psychology."
∆ I really enjoy this sentiment.

As for what you say about the childhood years I have many thoughts and feelings on this. I find it so fascinating and it is something that is really new and exciting for me in my dream work. I'm still not sure how to use it and so I am seeking to learn from you for I really enjoyed your interpretation of my dream and I've been looking at some of your other work and its fascinating to me its a tool you definitely bear a lot of fruit with. I agree with this multiple level idea and it seems to have been something jung and then hillman tried to accept. Jung at first saying stick to the image which I take to be keeping Freud in line since yes you can trace back to the childhood years but that is not what the dream is speaking about but what it betrays in the sense that it is part of the dreaming psyche if that makes sense. Hillman seems to go further in saying the same and applying it to Jung as well saying yes we can go off into the archetypes and off into the childhood but stick to the image. Im not such a fan of Hillman. But again I think there are just avenues which open up but the childhood avenue is never one I've known how to integrate into my own practice and so to discover you has been a very pleasant encounter! As for the Freud vs Jung argument while the childhood certainly has a massive and primary role it is not final our fate is not written so early I feel that the individuation process is not greatly important and effective. It is like a second interaction with the developments of the childhood years a chance to play more of a role in this conditioning.
What you say about joe Campbell certainly resonates I read his hero with a thousand faces in my travels and the symmetry of the physical as well as the psychological nature of the journey certainly struck a chord with me. I also know what you mean with lucid dreaming. It can just be a play pen. My intention had been to engage my subconscious in my lucid dreaming and interact with it. As it turns out this intention has come to fruition through my dreamwork.
I am going to post another of my dreams on the board after this response jerry but before I finish I want to ask you about a couple of things. I read your guide to dream interpretation and one thing I came across was your three things to pick out in the dream: the images the phrases and the patterns. While I fully get the images and I think I understand the patterns of behaviours I was having trouble understanding what you were aiming at with the phrases describing actions. Could you help make this clearer for me perhaps using either this dream or my next one? And maybe some examples of the patterns of behaviour as well if you could?
Also one more question about jungian dreamwork what do you think of active imagination. I mean obviously it's not a technique you can take advantage of on here but do you find it useful in your own dreamwork?

Thanks a million,
Jimmy

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 23 now in canada (previously travelling Australia) but from Ireland

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Yes

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Re: Jimmy's Post 'The Hot Tub Turtles'

Jimmy,
Thanks for the detailed response. I'll give a brief response of my own and then take a look at your latest dream.

It is not often I get to have a conversation with someone who has god knowledge of Jungian psyche. I stopped trying to converse with academic types because they are so intent on the strict application of Jungian concepts. Plus few have real life experiences or intuitive mind to compliment the depth knowledge Jung provides. I feel my life experiences are largely responsible for my ability to intuitively understand dreams since many of those experiences involved emotional energies most people experience in life. I also believe my learned/developed people skills provides great insights that are helpful {I worked as a health codes inspector/enforcement for 12 years before starting a fence construction business for which I retired after 34 years}. The one thing I have learned from working with dreams that fits with life in general is good common sense goes a long way in understanding what is and what isn't.

As to the question about the phrases describing actions. When you read my analysis/interpretations you will notice how I mention my interpretation of images and actions. An image alone doesn't always provide a right direction or true description or intent of what the dream is attempting to communicate. Although I interpret an image itself I take into context the actions involved when the image appears as well as how it applies to what has been stated already in the dream. I look at a dream as a production, a script of the dreamer's emotional life. Just as a with a play or movie production there has to be a plot that comes together. Just like a good play/movie production dreams have complex twists and turns. Being a big fan of the old Sherlock Holmes movies I see myself as a sleuth of dreams, taking the available evidence as well what is not available {common sense plays well with this} and finding patterns that fit together. Dreams are like a picture puzzle with a proper place for each piece. When the pieces {images/actions} begin to fit together to form a picture then I intuitive sense a direction as well as an emotional pattern take form. An image a lone says a lot but the actions that go with the image says a lot more. As with all patterns {I'm thinking of neurons as an example} there are related actions to the central energy {the image} that allows us to understand not only the direction it is headed but from what direction it came. In dreams/psychology the foundations begin in childhood with those experiences/influences being imprinted on the psyche. Going back to the source of anything will reveal its underlying foundations, even if it does change into a butterfly from a caterpillar later in life. The image of a butterfly doesn't properly describe the intricate journey it took to reach its maturity.

As for active imagination. That is one aspect of the individuation process I have not actively investigated as a tool to wholeness. Of course just by working with dreams we are bridging conscious and the unconscious. By translating the images in dreams we are participating in active imaging but not as a meditation used in the various methods offered by different techniques. Plus I used my imagination in my web design, my creative outlet of self expression. While I was self analyzing my own life and discovering who I really am I used my websites {Myths-Dreams-Symbols in particular} as a way to express what was within. This was my path to self imaging as well as a way to be creative. Unfortunately I have had too little time in the past several months to work with my creative self and because of the demands of my dream work, caring for my cat population and maintaining a home I have lost touch with that creative self. It is there, incubating but utilizing it at this time is on the back burner.

I'll take a look at your latest dream. It will take a little time to analyze because of its length so it will be tomorrow at the earliest before I will be able to interpret the images/actions and the dream {I have begun to provide a breakdown of how I interpret the images/actions for most dreams}.

Jerry

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 65 Cocoa, Fl

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