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Precognative Dreams, Dream Central and Shooting the Messenger

In my answer to Maan's post the subject of precognative dreams {dreams predicting the future} as well as the dream having the opposite meaning to what is happening in the waking life, were addressed. I feel these are important questions and I want to restate my answers in this post. I also critique Dream Central's forum and approach to dreams. Your questions, rebuttals, insights are welcome.




Maan,
In response to your question, "is it true that what you're dreaming is the opposite of what will happen to you in reality?" No, that is not true. It doesn't necessarily means there could not be opposite conotations to the dream symbols but to generalize dreams as being opposite of what will happen in life is a wrong assumption. It is a wrong asumption to think dreams will predict what will happen in the future. They compensate what you already know {
perhaps unconsciuously but not consciously
} and if by deduction some event or experience is predicted in a dream it is because it is a normal occurrance that would happen. Go to this page for a better understanding of Precognitive Dreams.

Do not think of dreams as a source of predicting your future. Many dream dictionaries will use this premise {example: from Dream Central Dream Dictionary

Rage: If you dream that you see someone in a rage is a bad sign for your business endeavors or conditions, it also denotes a degree of unhappiness in your social life. If you are the person who flies in a rage denotes that your bad temper may cause unhappiness and harm to your friends. If you see a lover or a spouse in a rage then will you have much discord in your affairs of the heart.

The above are fixed assumptions of what the rage symbol means, and the first line is a prediction of what will happen in your life if rage is a symbol in your dream. If your waking life is centered on your business life then the meaning could apply but I doubt that it has much validity. NO dream symbol should ever be thought of as having a 'fixed' meaning. A symbol in one person's dream may have an entirely different meaning in another person's dream. It all depends on the individual life.

Dream symbols can have the opposite meaning in diffferent people's dreams. Jung recounts the dreams of a young man and an old man, both having pretty much identical dreams. The dream depicts the dreamer {both the old and young men} on a fox hunt with them riding their horse, chasing after the fox. When they come to a barrier that the horse must jumo, the young man successfully makes the jump where the old man's horse refuses to do so.
The interpretation by Jung is that the young man needs to be chasing after those things that fulfills his life, whereas the old man's dream is the opposite, he has already faced the chase and now is time to move on to another stage of life.
The old man's dream, while nearly identical to the young man's dream is in fact opposite in its message. The dream is about the individual and while many of the aspects of both dreams carry the same meaning, the final message is different acoording to the individual.

But don't confuse the dreams of different individuals as the same as what the individual dream message is trying to communicate. The dream is not trying to hide or disguise anything, it is merely presenting the dreamer with what is actually occuring in the dreamer's life at the time of the dream, especially the emotional aspects. The dream deals with the present and the past and any future events or experiences is from deductive reasoning and not a prediction mechanism of dreams.

While I am on the subject of Dream Central, I was at one time a regular contributor to its dream forum. While in whole it is a good place to seek answers to dream questions, its premise is flawed, as in the dictionary meaning I quoted above. Most dream theories are based on some type of interpretation of symbols and come close to what the symbols may represent. But unless the individual life is considered, placing all the fruit in one basket will lead you astray from the true meaning of the dream. I respect
DrDoc's
knowledge but it is flawed and based on personal assumptions that do not hold up to scientific scrutiny. Jung's philosophies are based on the science of the dream and is why we see more and more psychologists and professionals using his techniques in addressing dreams. If you look at my interpretations here at the forum, going back through all that are posted since I placed it on line in April 2001 {there have been 1258 posts}, you will see that my approach answers most dream quesitions satifactorily if not entirely. I am blessed with a good intuitive sense which undoubtly helps with seeing into the dream, but it is Jung's philosophies of the dream that provide the true insights to the dream world.

Another criticism of Dream Central is it has become so commerialised. If you go to Sleeps.com, the URL of Dream Central, you are confronted with a commerialised page selling tee shirts, astrology {DrDoc's orginal line of expertise}and a link to E-Harmony's match making site. The whole site is commerialised and even though I have an understanding of the costs involved in maintaining a website, I don't see the need to give so much space to commerialization. I hope someone will shoot me if I should ever do that to MDS.

What finally chased me away from contributing to Dream Central's forum was the personal attacks on Jung's philosophies by DrDoc and other regular Dream Central contribitors. If you can't respect the other person's reasoning then you either discuss the matter as mature adults or keep quite.
Gerard

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 55 Murfreesboro, Tn.

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Re: Precognative Dreams, Dream Central and Shooting the Messenger

Hi Gerard,
On only three occasions in 43 years I have experienced what could be viewed as precognitive dream events. (I feel these events were spiritual rather than precognition.) Each event played out the same night as the dream or the day following. Intuition is a factor in my life but I must admit in these three instances I can only determine the spiritual as the source. While I have tried to reason pre knowledge of these events coming from intuition I haven't been able to connect the dots to support this definition.

In each event there was no option to affect outcome through change. Each was simply knowledge of an unalterable event. It would be a rare event for a dream to actually predict the future. Because each action or inaction causes another action or inaction, the ripple effect, when combined with chaos I feel the result can not be predetermined.

All in all, if precognition is defined simply as pre knowledge of events derived from the spiritual then yes, I believe it is possible although in my experience very rare. Perhaps a person possessing a more advanced level of spirituality could experience it more often.

And thank you for not commercializing the MDS site. It’s Zen the way it is.

Regards,
K.

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Re: Re: Precognative Dreams, Dream Central and Shooting the Messenger

Kathy,
Thanks for sharing your most insightful experiences. The pre-knowledge you spoke of is a function of the unconscious and is manifest most often through the intuitive sense. And the spiritual aspect is an aspect that Jung spoke of as being embodied within the collective psyche {and thus within the individual psyche}. Your assessement that the precognition can give insights to the future is correct also. While it is a possibility it is very rare.

One experience Jung spoke about was the patient who dreamed he was falling from a mountain cliff. Jung determined that the patient must be most careful since he {patient} was about to undertake a mountain climbing trip. Indeed the patient did fall from a cliff to his death but only after he had knowingly stepped away from the cliff by intention. The dream was a precognitive recognition of the future event that would lead to the patient's demise. It may have been as much a wish fulfillment as it was a prediction. In any case such events are rare, according to Jung.

You also touched on something which I believe is one the most essential aspects of understanding the psychology of Jung; the spiritual aspect. When a scientist tells us that there is evidence of a metaphysical presence within us all, one either thinks of a duck and a quack, or seeks deeper understanding of something that the intuitive psyche identifies with. We must remember that the different aspects of the human psyche represent patterns of individual and collective behavior. The collective behavior is from the primitive mind which was formed millions of years ago. There is much evidence to support spiritual behavior in earliest man, the cavebear skull with the bone in the eye being one of the earliest. This was not a religious event but a spiritual recognition of sacrifice of the bear and man's taking life to substain life. Instead of bravedo, an ego reaction, the caveman showed reverence to the bear, honoring the bear's sacrifice. This was done out of graditude and out of fear. The fear was that the bear would return to seek vengence if man did not honor his sacrifice. This same experience can be found in the many Native American myths, the sacrifice of the buffalo and the rituals undertaken by the native Indians to show respect.

So your conclusions of the precognitive aspect as often being spiritual is correct. Jung said that of all his patients, those who discovered a spiritual/metaphysical aspect within were ALL cured of thier disorders, whether psychological or physical. The spiritual/metaphysical aspect is an intrinsic part of the psyche.

spiritual/metaphysical as opposed to religious- Religion is based on the dogma of man, taken from a context of spiritual nourishment. Most religions deny the role of nature as a part of its dogma. Spirituality incorporates nature as a vital source of understanding and recognizing something within ourselves that resonates with the rest of nature. Whereas religion is a product of man's recognition of a spiritual aspect, spirituality is an aspect of nature within man/woman that is derived from the deepest resources within the soul.

spiritual/metaphysical- Spirituality is but one part of a metaphysical aspect within the psyche. Metaphysics also includes a creative spirit, the muse. We all possess some creative aspect. When we connect to that creative self and make it a vital part of our waking life, we find a kind of inner peace. When negative forces from the social realm or the waking ego tend to cause depression or gloom within ones life, you need merely turn to the inner resources of the creative spirit to lift you out of the depths of dispare. Of course deep rooted physical or psychological ailments can preclude one from accessing this creative spirit, but by reaching down into the inner soul and making the creative spirit an vital part of the waking life, many of these ailments can be resolved. It is nature's remedy.

Thanks again Kathy for your insights. Those who possess a recognition of intuition as part of the Self ARE advanced in their spirituality. Enlightenment comes to all who seek the inner light. Recognition of the inner self can stimulate one to undergo a death and resurrection of the ego, thus regulating the ego to a secondary position below that of the spiritual. I believe the process of Individuation involves an acceptance of the feminine powers as the guide.
You are further along than you realize.

Gerard

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 55 Murfreesboro, Tn.

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Male

Re: Precognative Dreams, Dream Central and Shooting the Messenger

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 43 Central OH

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