I was in San Francisco (where I lived when I was 30)..someone introduced me to a young man with pale blue eyes and a royal purple jacket...He said "I like you" the moment we shook hands...meaning he felt a deep connection immediately...(he was gay)...I told him I was studying Jungian dream interpretation..he asked if it was for my masters dissertation..and I said..No..just to understand my own dreams..He seemed to lose interest in me because I said that...then he asked if I liked to Rave...
I said No...I was a very quiet person..and then he gestured to a young man.....to go with him to "party"..and left me....I said..I can get home from here...so I tried to find a train station... I realized...I would have to leave everything behind..(all of my possessions..to take this train)...except for my orange kitten..which I tried to hide in my purse....I was trying to find a bus that would take me to a train station..and I kept missing the bus...finally I was near the station...and I was with an X-boyfriend (of 10 years ago)....we saw sort of a cave apartment....where 2 men were selling exotic masks...(that were lamps)...these men told my X (a woman won't know anything about these lamps)..my X said...that I knew everything about these particular TIKI type figurines.
END of DREAM

also, gerard...why does Jung consider 4 wholeness...just curious because of the Holy Trinity?

Thanks...

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 53 US

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} female

How Did You Find the Dream Forum? yes

Lucy,
I'll attempt to answer you question about the number 4 and later provide an interpretation of your dream.

I don't know that Jung used just one criteria in assigning the number 4 as representing wholeness. One that he did use and what is most likely the primary source was the four stages of the Individuation Process with the 4th stage being the Self, the final stage of 'self realization'. This is the final stage of the individuation process and, says Jung, most people never reach it.

"Stage four consists of encountering what Jung calls 'the Self'. The self has to be distinguished from the ego. The ego is the conscious mind. The self is the total, fully integrated psyche, in which all opposing or conflicting elements are united and co- ordinated. Bear in mind what Jung says about the relationship between the conscious and unconscious, the unconscious contains the opposite characteristics or capabilities to those that are evident at the conscious level of the personality (e.g. if you are the extrovert type your unconscious will be introvert). At this final stage of individuation conscious and unconscious become so thoroughly integrated into one harmonious whole that those things that were previously opposites and therefore - potentially, at least - in conflict are transformed."

There was also Jung's 4 stages of development.

and the 4 functions of the psyche



And from Jung's long time devoted student and colleague Marie Von Franz:

“As an archetype, number becomes not only a psychic factor, but more generally, a world-structuring factor. In other words, numbers point to a background of reality in which psyche and matter are no longer distinguishable.”

Von Franz looked into the first four integers. The numbers 1 – 4 can be regarded (roughly) as

“One” is undifferentiated, unity. It is what Erich Neumann described as the “Uroboric” condition… the archetypal totality where the snake is depicted eating its own tail. This can also be seen in the baby sucking at the mother’s breast.

“Two” is conflict, division, opposition, a split, thesis and antithesis.

“Three” is synthesis of the thesis and antithesis.

“Four” is stability and unity.

As for the Holy Trinity. That is based on a religious idea in Western philosophy. The number 3 represents something not 'fully complete'. Jung was more influenced by Eastern philosophy such as Buddhism's 4 Noble Truths. And there was the basic elements of life that coincided with his assigment of the number 4:

The number of order in the universe is 4—the four elements of earth, air, fire, and water; the four seasons; the four points of the compass; the four phases of the Moon (new, half-moon waxing, full, half-moon waning). The Four Noble Truths epitomize Buddhism. To the Pythagoreans 4 was the source of the tetractys 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10, the most perfect...

	First Noble Truth: THE EXISTENCE OF IMPERMANENCE Second Noble Truth: THE ARISING OF SUFFERING BECAUSE OF CRAVING Third Noble Truth: THE CESSATION OF SUFFERING Fourth Noble Truth: THE MIDDLE WAY, or THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH
read more about the 4 Noble Truths

Thus the number 4. I hope that provides insights to Jungian thought.

If you want o really get into archetypal numbers, 9 is the number that stands out. Or more so is the number 432.

gerard

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 58 Murfreesboro, Tn

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Male

How Did You Find the Dream Forum? Yes

Thanks Gerard..that is very interesting...I have not read that much Jung..I am now about half way through his DREAMS (the Bollingen Series book)....I have really enjoyed reading Robert Johnson (especially his memoire)...and some of Thomas Moore's books....I realize Jung him self...is quite a bit more time consuming to read....as well as more difficult to understand...much more intellectual....and "scientific"...

I was wondering...if in Christianity....the completeness of the holy trinity..would be US....the human..the Self...that completes the trinity...

You also mentioned...that Jung felt no one ever got to the SELF (or rarely..the 4th stage)...I was wondering if he felt that he himself did?

Thanks...

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 53 US

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} female

How Did You Find the Dream Forum? yes

Lucy,
Joseph Campbell thought that Jung had reached that 4th stage. Someone who probably fits the mold of being completely 'Individuated' would be Gandhi. Or perhaps Mother Teresa {although her autobiography indicated doubts about God and her faith-but that was religion-her psyche was purely spiritual}. Icons best most associated with reaching that 4ft stage would be Jesus and the Buddha.

As for the Trinity, Christianity and wholeness. Archetypal symbols, and associations, predate all religions, they are psychic representations {they are universal emotional patterns} and are the from that part of the brain that is still primitive and original. We all possess and can access these universal symbols in our dreams. They come about primarily during 'peek' life experiences, mid-life being probably the most profound stage.

Buddhism predates Christ by 500 years. Their philosophy {Buddhism is more a psychology than a religion} is closer to the 'original' mind and have retained more of that 'original thought'. Intuitive thought is a product of that original form {we are talking about God} and is available to most any psyche/person. God would be 4.
But that is blasphemy in the Christian faith. The thought is just the opposite in the East as opposed to the West. As a Christian you must bring God in. In the east God already resides within, you need to bring him out.

But the primitive mind doesn't consider that. They are concepts, as are all religions. They are all also myths. And myths will illustrate the most original aspect, as do our dreams. Both use symbolic metaphors that the unconscious mind recognizes whereas the conscious mind may not. This is language of dreams. And they can be interpreted.
There is much evidence to that here at the Dream Forum.

This is where Joseph Campbell becomes so instrumental in understanding Jungian psyche. He articulates what Jung said in ways that we all can understand, and demonstrates so perfectly how dreams and mythology are related and how each uses the same symbols to describe a narrative that fits a pattern {the 'Hero' being the most recognized}. Again, universal patterns, of emotions and human personality and behavior.

I also like Robert Johnson and have read Thomas Moore. Someone I have found to be a great influence and helped with my understanding of 'Jung' was Marion Woodman, a Jungian psychologist living in Canada. She uses dreams {as Jung did} in her patient theraphy and has written several noted books on the feminine soul including Addition To Perfection and The Maiden King : The Reunion of Masculine and Feminine {with Robert Bly} . Her audio book Dreams: Language of the Soul is a must for anyone who wishes to explore the depths of the unconscious.

Jung is quite deep. But Jungian psyche can't be that 'intellectual' if someone like myself can understand it. I've spent the last 15 years educating myself, first with Campbell then into Jung. Of course I also have been under self analyze the same number of years, my own 'Individuation Process'.
It is intuitive, instinctual . It either catches you or it doesn't. It fits me, I knew from the first time I saw Campbell in The Power of Myth that it did. And I have been with it ever sense. It is where my bliss resides, dreams and the Myths-Dreams-Symbols website {creative}.
So, don't believe for a minute you are not capable of understanding. Your creative talents alone predispose you to those 'psyche understanding' of what Jung was talking about. Its intuitive, it is already there to be discovered. Going 'in' and discovering those 'creative' and spiritual aspects that bring about a 4 in life. What Campbell called 'following your bliss.

gerard

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 58 Murfreesboro, Tn

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Male

How Did You Find the Dream Forum? Yes

Sorry. I didn't give the correct link to The Power of Myth. This is the correct link.

THE POWER OF MYTH

My bad!

gerard

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 58 Murfreesboro, Tn

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Male

How Did You Find the Dream Forum? Yes

Hi Gerard..
I was wondering if you forgot to interpret my dream?

No hurry..but was interested to see what you think?

By the way, I was very interested in all the info..about numbers, Jung, etc.

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 53 US

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} female

How Did You Find the Dream Forum? yes

Lucy,
Yes, I did. I apologize. I will get it my full attention in the morning. Hopefully this case of amnesia will be cleared up.

gerard

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 58 Murfreesboro, Tn

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Male

How Did You Find the Dream Forum? Yes

Lucy,
Being in San Francisco may be alluding to some past experience that has for some reason resurfaced and still has enough energy to have emotional overtones. Were there such experiences that may have come back to talk to you in your dreams, or perhaps even your waking self?

The male who was gay in the dream, if he does not fit the above, would be symbolic of your shared masculine qualities {not fully masculine}. The action in the dream {dream interpretation} doesn't seem to interest him {this aspect of your psyche}. Perhaps it has to do with 'inner soul' work you are currently working on and that masculine aspect is more interested in or distracted by 'outer' activities. But being gay suggests it is partly feminine so the emotions are still focused on those qualities {creativity?}

The rest of the dream seems to be addressing actions, possibly conflicts, between masculine and feminine. The 'party' has left you, perhaps eluding to those things that once were important but no longer. I get the sense that leaving behind your possessions and the rave party are focusing on a need to put your efforts toward one asset {perhaps creativity, soul work} but to do so you may have to give up material worth. Being gay may represent balance between the two but that part has 'left you', perhaps not a viable option. There may be pressures from social duty {the beast that haunts anyone who seeks their creative self} that are being addressed. The orange kitten may represent a disillusioned creative self {red representing a 'fire in the belly' attitude}. And hiding it in your purse, again the purse strings representing social 'evils' {evil to those of us who seek the creative self}.

You keep missing the train. Another 'social duty' obstruction? And the masculine re-enters, and brings masks. Past experiences that you are covered up? The Tiki items, human forms that are for sell. Familiar items from the past?

There does seem to be some thing from your past that has resurfaced and perhaps is interfering with your 'creative' aspects. I get the impression certain social obligations, or feelings of obligations, have something to do with the dream. Can you associate anything in your life with these symbols?
And are you the creative type and if so is there obstructions to that Self? And your x. Does he actually fit anywhere in your recent experiences?

Since you asked about the number 4 and in your dream there is language about dream interpretation, I am willing to venture you are exploring a creative path, and/or a spiritual one. But there may be waking experiences that explain some of the context of the dream, as with your x, and the past experiences in San Francisco. I let you comment on these and I await your response.

gerard

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 58 Murfreesboro, Tn

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Male

How Did You Find the Dream Forum? Yes

Some of it makes sense (with your input)...but I can't grasp it...
I thought the male was me (I have a purple jacket and blue eyes)...but his rejection of me (when he found out I had No CREDENTIALS...i.e.masters program....) was very painful. I have no college degree..and this has always bothered me... In San Francisco..I did see a Jungian analyst for perhaps a year. Lately I have been really turning Inward....I am a true artist..(but never knew it)..and have always tried to live in both worlds....I have not been "successful" enough to stop my "jobs"..or been too fearful to try...Part of me wants to sit in a cave and write haiku (drink tea..and talk to taoist masters)....and yet I am ashamed because I have not been more successful materially (college degree....wealth...etc.)... I guess I feel like I have failed...Reading Thomas Moores (a life at work) gave me encouragement...that I have chosen not to be sucessful....but have always chosen freedom.....and my art...but still something is holding me back...I am seeking both spiritually and creatively...feeling that Jung.....might hold the key to both of these journeys.....but still I have just started a new "horribly boring repetitive job..." that I feel is taking me backwards...not forward... I have had some major success with my photography (and also write poetry)...but feel lost and torn....? Does any of this fit? (I am trying to find my way home? spiritually and creatively)..but keep missing the bus???? My X collected all sorts of Tiki and exotic masks and is an artist..but is strictly living in the mateial world....void of spirituality?
It is very confusing...I sense....my psyche is trying to help me..but it seems very unclear.. any thing jump out ?

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 53 US

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} female

How Did You Find the Dream Forum? yes

Lucy,
Thanks for the follow up post. I'll try to explain it where you can understand what I see as the primary dream message.

The male/masculine is you, that inner masculine aspects. And I don't believe it is 'his' rejection of you that the dream is expressing but the inner rejection of the masculine aspect as having to do the conflicts of the 'outer' self, ego and social duty. You are seeking balance between the two {gay male}, physical world of social duty and the "metaphysical" world of creativity. For some reason there is not or can not be a balance as you wish/seek. The social world of responsibility may the source of your conflict {as it often is, is indeed the primary obstacle in my life that prevents a full creative mood}. It is not necessarily your credentials of the outer possession of a degree {although it may be alluding to that outer aspect if there is inner conflict of not having a degree} but the inner sanctity of not engaging fully in the creative Self.

The theme of your dream I believe is firstly and foremost delving into the hero/heroine pattern of Self vs the world of social duty {Dharma in Buddhism/Hinduism}. You state in your follow-up you are a true artist and have tried to balance both worlds. Your soul is that creative Self {as Jung and Campbell both suggest is true in all of us, if we seek to acknowledged it}. Your job, social duty, is in conflict with the soul.
And once you discover the soul, it must, and will take center stage in life.
Thus the desire for a balance between the two.

But you do keep missing the bus {as you state}. Perhaps that is because you feel it important to be successful in the material world.
The train will take you to that proper place if only you stop missing the bus.
Perhaps if you stop be so concerned about the 'credentials' of the material world and put your energies to enjoying your creative self....
that is what the hero/heroin of myth does. Let Go and let the creative Self take the lead {similar to the saying "let go and let God"}.
That is the ultimate message of Jung and Campbell. And one I abide by in my attempt for 'Individuation'. Creativity and spirituality.

Is this were you find yourself? The outer conflict of credentials is a part of the dream but the conflict of not given your all to the creative Self is the key issue that confronts you. Social duty is the big torn in the side of those of us who seek to be fully creative, and ultimately spiritual {being immersed in the creative Self is to be spiritual-giving of one self from the soul.

gerard

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 58 Murfreesboro, Tn

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Male

How Did You Find the Dream Forum? Yes