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in a Catholic church

My husband and I are heading east in the car on a four-lane highway leading to Lancaster, PA, where he grew up. He turns the car onto a side road because he wants to go to a Catholic church. There he goes to the end of a long line of people and I follow him there. The people are lined up to see some sort of religious icon or statue. I realize that I don't meet the dress requirements to view it. There is a gap between my shirt and my pants, and my skin is exposed. I see that some others in the line have found makeshift ways to cover themselves. I find a towel and wrap it around the gap between my shirt and pants. When I do view the religious object, I am impressed in spite of not wanting to be moved by it. I feel a sense of great mystery. The experience affects me profoundly, and I am totally surprised by this.

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 55

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Re: in a Catholic church

harriett,
I sense the dream is addressing spiritual aspects. You were going in your husband's direction but deviated to other possibilities. Yet you have not completely separated yourself from him. In your search you discover different possibilities but do not feel comfortable with them {you do not belong}. There is indecision on your part {gap between shirt and pants}. You have tested different spiritual possibilities to fulfill your spiritual needs {makeshift ways to cover themselves}. The exposed skin may represent your true self {your true skin} and you are covering up that part of yourself. There are spiritual concepts that impress you but there is also hesitation to these mysterious philosophies.

Beginning with your first dream I have had the impression you are resisting other spiritual possibilities. This may be due to your husband's position and/or spiritual background. But I do sense your true spiritual self is beyond that and there may be a hesitation to accept those true spiritual desires.

Having been raised in the Christian church early in life and being deeply involved as a teen, it was difficult for me at first to understand other spiritual concepts. But when I began to understand my true self those so called mystery religions {as called by Christian church} began to fit and today are more influential to my spiritual identity than Christianity. Could this also be the position you are in?

gerard/Jerry

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 58 Murfreesboro, Tn

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Male

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Re: in a Catholic church

Harriett,

In reading your dream, I had the sense of the mystery (something covered) as being within the body (the physical form, and it is the feminine principle of "God [the source of creation] that gives birth to all life, all form). That the very thing which provokes the mystery (the statue) is actually inside of the body, but in Christianity/Catholicism we have been taught to deny the body...we have lived our spirituality in our heads (a patriarchal way), worshipping the sacred outside of us, instead of finding/knowing the sacredness of our body/self, as the chalice of God.

Kristi

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 42, Kansas

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Re: in a Catholic church

harriett,
While at the gym I began thinking more about your dream and the possibility the dream is addressing more than just spiritual matters. In this dream and your dream torn dictionary of the Bible your husband figures prominently in the dream. In this dream following his lead. Perhaps there is something in the relationship that is in conflict, or in common, that is important. What aspects of the relationship do you tend to 'follow his lead', perhaps submitting to his wishes? The gap between the shirt and pants. Could that be something literal that fits with waking life experiences, showing skin?

gerard/Jerry

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 58 Murfreesboro, Tn

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Re: in a Catholic church

You have both given me a lot to think about. And these are only two of the dreams I've had in the past week that involved the church. I didn't post them all because it seemed too much to expect help with so many dreams. It has always been typical for me to follow my husband's lead. In fact, it's only really been in the past two and a half years that I stopped following in everything. Until then I was totally locked into the role of the minister's wife, even working at the church. When I started doing dreamwork and dreamed about being in a car (a common dream at that time) my husband was always driving. I never had a dream in which I was driving until six months after I started therapy. And now, here in this recent dream, my husband is not only driving, but he is driving me to two of the last places I would want to go, to his hometown and to a Catholic Church. And when he gets in the line at the church, I follow him into the line. I have always submitted to his wishes and beliefs about religion. I often seem to dream about gaps. In this case, the part that showed, the real me-- my skin-- was the very part that was unacceptable in the church and had to be covered over with a towel in order to make me acceptable. On a very literal level, my husband and I were at a clergy conference at the time I dreamed this. I always feel as if I don't really belong there among the clergy and spouses. Once we did stand at the end of a very long line (for food). At the conference, I was following my husband's lead all the time I was with him because I was only there as a spouse. In response to what Kristi wrote, I did feel that the mystery I responded to in the dream was something feminine. The theme of the chalice of God was a big part of another dream I recently had, a dream that clearly focused on the masculine/feminine. The central images in that dream were beautiful, faceted, crystal bottles of perfume-- with feminine shapes. I associated them with the chalice.
As far as resisting other spiritual possibilities, I think that the question of other spiritual possibilities does pose a fear for me because it seems to threaten the life I've lived for so long. I think I am in a position of finding other forms of spirituality more meaningful than Christianity. I feel that Christianity is only one type of spirituality yet considers itself the only valid one. Harriett

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 55

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Re: in a Catholic church

harriett,
In your response you mentioned this about your husband,'he is driving me to two of the last places I would want to go', his hometown and a Catholic Church. Are there any specific reasons these two places are not where you would want to be? And it could it be they represent {metaphor some aspect of the relationship with your husband that is at its end? Perhaps you are finally resolving those controlling conflicts he placed on you {especially the spiritual aspects.

Also in your response you wrote, 'In response to what Kristi wrote, I did feel that the mystery I responded to in the dream was something feminine'. The mystery that your responded to was feminine. That is a realization of great magnitude, if you can accept it as truth. My thoughts are, and my spiritual philosophy, that the feminine aspect of the psyche is superior to the masculine. And in spiritual concepts the same holds true. Patriarchy rules with an iron fist because it is so afraid of the feminine aspect of the psyche. And what is that feminine aspect in religious terms? Jesus!
Whereas God is masculine, with heavy masculine traits {you can follow the evolution of religions from the earliest times in Joseph Campbell's book Transformations of Myth Through Time}, at times vengeful {a general masculine trait}, warrior, jealous {of other gods?}.
Jesus is just the opposite. His characteristics are from the feminine aspect. Loving, caring, accepting, a complete opposite of the God of Abraham. He is born from the feminine principles which are in '{mystic' eyes are related to the earth, nature, the feminine principle of Gia. If the general population should ever learn to discern this fact they would turn away from patriarchy in droves, thus destroying the power of the church, and the men who control them.

To realize the true nature of the human psyche, the primary controlling agent as feminine, that is a realization of great proportions. Perhaps the last two places you want to be in your husband's world has something to do with this realization that 'Eve' was not to blame for the fall, or that creation is not a masculine thing but by nature's own hand a feminine aspect {woman giving birth- earth as the true mother}. The Catholic church with all its good qualities is the epitome of patriarchy. I too would not want to 'go there'.

gerard/Jerry

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 58 Murfreesboro, Tn

Have You Posted Before? Date of Last Post {Use Search and Your Post Name to Help Find Last Post} Male

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Re: in a Catholic church

Gerard said: ((((('Eve' was not to blame for the fall)))))

And Kristi tips her chalice, cheering, "Here, here!"

It is a wound we have worn for far too long.

I wonder it if might be helpful for you to post your other dreams, Harriett. It is what the forum is for. From what little you shared of them, they sound to contain very positive messages .

Kristi

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 42, Kansas

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Re: in a Catholic church

Gerard,

Yes, there are specific reasons why my husband's hometown and the Catholic church were two of the last places I would want to go. Literally, I do get a sinking feeling when I'm heading toward my husband's hometown. Five years ago our son told us that his uncle had sexually abused him there when he was little. This happened at the house where my husband grew up. I can't get over associating the place with that trauma. The Catholic Church fits in with that, too. Although I used to admire the Catholic Church, and I still admire some aspects of it, I strongly associate it with abuse of various kinds and as you said, with the strong-arm of the patriarchy. When the Catholic Church goes wrong, the patriarchy is what seems to be driving it in its wrongness. As you said, it is the epitome of the patriarchy. I think that my feeling of "those are the last two places I would want to go" relates to the patriarchy both as the source of the sexual abuse and the source of the kind of abuse you mentioned (blaming women, disrespecting women, taking advantage of those weaker than oneself, and destroying the earth). But in the dream I allowed myself to be driven to the places I didn't want to go. And I did feel that I connected with something important and feminine at the Catholic Church at the end of the dream. Harriett

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 55

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Re: in a Catholic church

harriett,
The fact you realized 'I allowed myself to be driven to the places I didn't want to go' is important. That is most likely the conflict for which the dream is trying to address, and help resolve. But knowing this is the what is happening is also very important. So many go about life not 'knowing' those unconscious stimuli that have so much control over their lives. Knowing lets' you work through the conflicts. Not knowing only allows a continuation of them. These are the kinds of 'inner knowledge', often spoken of as 'secret knowledge', that dreams provide. They are secret in that the unconscious holds them with the psyche and the conscious mind is not ware of them.

As for the feminine. Again you have come upon a realization that I feel so important. The Catholic church is different from most other Protestant churches in they do recognize the feminine aspect. Unfortunately even then it is relegated to a second class position behind patriarchy. Fortunately so few Catholics live by all the rules of the church.
In Jungian psyche the feminine aspect is superior. That position goes with nature. The Great Mother who gives birth. No man has ever done that, and never will. Not physically anyways.

Life is but a metaphor....Joseph Campbell

gerard/Jerry

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 58 Murfreesboro, Tn

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Re: in a Catholic church

Dear Harriett,
i think that in the dream you did not follow "your husband" but that part of your own soul which is represented by what your husband is supposed to mean to you: a leader, a wise man, a strong decisive masculine authority figure - this is then YOUR OWN WISDOM that you already have and are FOLLOWING. i think the dream tries to bring to your attention the fact that you already have plenty of your own "masculine" wisdom than can lead you to your own IMPORTANT DISCOVERIES. it is of note that the road to the spiritual discovery is a SIDE ROAD, a deviation from the undertaken direction. your car is heading EAST - that is, to the SPIRITUAL beginning, where the sun and everything rises, is BORN. it may be incidental that it is a "Catholic Church" - if the value of the experience is in the aspect of DIVINE INSPIRATION that has originated in that church, and is occcasionally rehashed there by peasant ("innocent") visionaries. what if the dream is bringing to your attention a heart-felt need for higher emotional mystic experiences which have been lost by the church and its overgrown emphasis on secularization money and power? what if it is your soul that needs to go back to the beginning of spirituality, to the source of a personal individual mystic experience?

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 60 y.o., Australia

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Re: in a Catholic church

Dear Gertrude,

Thanks for your help with my dream. That does seem to fit, and I want to think some more about the questions you raised at the end. I have had another church dream, and I'm going to post it. Harriett

Age & Gender & Location {Required}: 55

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