As I was dreaming this, I felt that this could not be me, was aware of not wanting to be having this dream -and in my dream thinking, said, I am having (or am in) somebody else's dream:

I am with a man that I do not know/recognize. While I do not see (or do not recall) any actual killing action in the dream, I think that we (he and I, together) are killing someone, secretly. At this point in the dream, I am aware of the aspect of my consciousness that feels/thinks, “goodness, no, this is not me, what am I doing?"” Next, he and I, go to a car where others (four men) are waiting. It is in a remote area, country area. The men have a hurried disposition, are in a hurry, to go… The trunk of the car is open. The man I am with is looking for a shot gun shell and not quickly enough finding one. I become aware that my pockets are full of large shot gun shells, like the size of 10 gauge shells. I fire a shot gun into the air, hearing a very loud blast. It is what the men waited for. The four of them take off. Next, I start loading articles of his and my gear into the back seat - our coats, my shotgun, his shotgun. I am then aware of being in a remote, country hotel room with this man. I feel guilty about the killing and am playing over in my mind how to “cover up” what we have done, how to present another story. Inside of my self, I feel like I am living a good guy, bad guy drama. There is a knock at the door. I see through the glass window pane that it is two police officers, a man and a woman. As the man I am with is in just his underwear, I open the door only partly to greet them, while I explain that the man is bare, to wait a moment. He goes toward the bathroom and I let the officers in. They are questioning us. The dream images stop with the officers leaving our hotel room. In my mind, I imagine that they will then check our car. I wonder if we left the shotguns laying in the back seat, if the officers will see them. And, that they saw we were wet from the rain, that the officers will know we had been out.

Looking at what is current in my life that may have precipitated this dream, I see that I was recently sharing with some folks at work about my military experiences, working in the prison, and all the forces and influences present there. I also just began reading "The Psychology of Jung," by Jolande Jacobi, for a class I am taking with the "Friends of Jung" in my area. I was moved by Jolande's words in the preface that spoke of man himself being man's greatest danger to him self and of the need to tame the dark powers of our psyche.

I am at a bit of a loss to understand the killing more specifically, as I do not see it taking place or who or what is being killed. BUT, as a child, I did have a death wish for my father. There was a period of time that I slept with a knife, after having raged my home, promising my father that he would NOT hurt (touch/abuse) me. I can also see other moments where this killing frenzy of energy was present, albeit quickly pushed away from my self, out of awareness. I feel the dream is perhaps showing this part of me that did have murderous impulses - and asks me to pour love and understanding there, without guilt (judgment). But what about those four men who take off when I fire the shotgun? What do they represent? I have four brothers who grew in the home with me, faced the same pressures in their developmental years. Perhaps I need to go find those four men - and pour love and understanding into them, too.

Kristi

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Kristi,
My first impression of the dream after reading the first few lines was you are seeking to 'kill' something within yourself, eliminate aspects related to the masculine {unknown man}. The narrative of the dream does seem to reflect possible past experiences you mention in the added info about your father, probably from your childhood. The guilt may be something you feel/felt from that period of time {guilt due to your father's attitude/actions-something a child often feels when having to submit to something unnatural}. The cover-up may be the repressing of these past experiences. And also the actual experiences by others that have been 'covered up'. The other story, something that was told by someone else that probably was an attempt to 'cover-up' the truth.

The number 4 is often symbolic of a desire/need for wholeness. There are two instances of this number {the 4 men and the two police officers, a man and a woman}. And it could very well be associated with your 4 brothers, the shared experiences. The number 10 also can be looked at in the same light {1 to 10, 10 being the highest and best solution}. The police officers may also represent that higher self, your higher unconsciously self addressing these past experiences.

The car is you. You need to discover/realize these masculine aspects that you wish to 'kill'. Through the higher self {your dreams} you discover {police-car-shotguns left in the car} this aggressive attitude {masculine}. And because it is a shotgun it may suggest there are two masculine aspects that you wish to eliminate. One being the past experiences involving your father and the other these other aggressive attitudes you possess. Being wet from the rain may represent a drenching of emotions that the higher self wishes to let out.

It does seem to fit, the dream addressing those experiences with your father and the attitudes you now possess, aggressive attitudes. Because they are still unresolved aspects to this relationship/attitudes your dreams will include such images until the inner conflicts are resolved. The death wish for your father as it relates in the dream may be a wish to purge those experiences. And a wish to eliminate the aggressive attitudes developed because of those past experiences.

Jung and Jacobi
I read Jacobi's book many years ago. There are so many good 'Jungian' writers, many who have become Jungian analyst. There used to be a Jungian group in Nashville but they disbanded some years ago. I attended one meeting and while it was interesting I found it to be a bit too academically inclined. Less interested in exploring the deeper psyche and more interested in the 'clinical' aspects. Those years of clinical learning are in the past for me. I tend to enjoy learning on my own, delving deep into the psyche, exploring those greater possibilities {as with the intuitive aspects I have spoken of in other posts}. In Jung's last years of life he studied the deeper possibilities including astrology, the occult, mysteries of the psyche. Those possibilities seem to fit with my desire to learn more about the deeper self.

gerard/Jerry

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Hi Gerard,

Thank you.

I am still trying to determine if there is something current that triggered this dream message. I thought also that at work yesterday evening, a younger man was telling of his experiences growing amidst a lot of violence, similar also to the big inner-city environment I grew amidst. During the moments, I was aware of feeling these aspects still within my self - and the need/desire to change them. And then, later in the evening, I found my self exploring inner emotions and thoughts regarding a situation in my life that had to do with "mother" and not long after found my self feeling guilty for having felt less than decorous toward "mother."

I'll respond more, later.

Kristi

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Gerard,

This dream has really been some difficult for me to understand as it seems so non-specific as to what is being killed. Though I surely do want to eliminate the negative masculine from my life, the dream was not showing my doing that, but that I was in collaboration with them. That I have had these negative tendencies is not a new discovery to me, not at all. I feel deeper understanding needs to be reached. I could not see who or what was being killed, but felt intensely that 'this is not me,' so a denial, or want to not believe that this negative aspect exists. But it does, for I do still recognize it in my self, though I have been making great strides. I am just going to take it that it is being shown to me, as it is still being worked out from within me...currently, actually. I have often had police officers in my dreams. It seems they always appear when there is some sort of helpful investigation of various aspects of my psyche occuring. As I look back over the past few days, I can see that I was being rather (staunchly) opinionated (one sidedly) in some moments of expression and I can see and feel the negative animus in that. It is not at all how I aspire to be. Seeing this of my self, I feel guilt. There needn't be guilt/judgment. These things just are, until they aren't.

On the mentored reading of Jacobi: Well, I do hope I do not find this series of classes becomes 'clinical' in nature. My impression of the first class does not lend to it leading to be that way. We'll see. The class is being taught be a senior analyst who is very intuitive (and mystical). I am about two decades younger than all other attendees, that makes me feel some bit awkward, but I trust I will gain (learn) from the experience.

Kristi

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Kristi,
The first rule to remember about dreams is they speak a language of metaphor and symbol. A literal interpretation of a symbol is seldom found in dreams. And because this is a not a 'new discovery' doesn't mean you should dismiss it. The dream may be trying to tell you this masculine aspect has taken 'too much' control in your life. Because you are conscious of a particular trait or aspect doesn't mean you know all there is to know about it. Those negative aspects will remain a part of your dreams, especially if they do exert control, as long as there is a conflict with them. As you state about your attitude over the past several days, being 'staunchy' and 'opinionated' {both masculine traits} may be what the dream is addressing. And don't forget dreams often will try to get to the source of these attitudes, showcasing childhood experiences that involve the original roots of the negative aspects. You are not wanting only to 'kill' these negative masculine traits that govern your actions in the present day, but also those original experiences.

I sense a defensive posture in your response. Is that a part of your personality? If so, are such traits something you wish to change? Is that what you wish to be 'killed'?

Much of your life was within masculine confines {armed services}, a man's world. And in early life you also grew up in a masculine environment {4 brothers and a father}. My experience was entirely different. I grew up with 3 sisters and raised by my mother. And that experience undoubtedly has assisted in my developed intuitive self. It wouldn't be unlikely your experiences in a masculine world are so deep they do exert great control. And if you look at men you will see they would rather 'deny' such things as admit to them. Look to the roots, those experiences in life that make you who you are, to determine the real factors that exert control over you.

I don't for a minute suggest I know better than you about your dreams. The dreamer always knows best. That is if they are 'willing' and able to 'objectively' look at the dream and not purely subjectively. The dream can do both but objectivity rules. It has too or you are still within the control of the ego centered self. Dreams are unconscious, te ego is conscious. Subjectivity is an ego thing and dreams lack the ego control. The more you study Jungian psyche the less power you give to the ego, and the more you realize how the ego will not let itself be 'killed' off so easily. The unconscious self is the true self. The conscious self must experience that 'death and resurrection' of the ego. And as Campbell states, it must be a complete annihilation before there can be a true resurrection.

As for your Jungian group. It may be entirely different from the one I attended. And/or you may be open to a more clinical offering. At 58 I am beyond that. At 42 I was still a 'virgin' and didn't even know Jung existed. At 58 I am looking beyond the clinical, having addressed those shadow aspects and not needing outside 'therapy' or wishing to make psychology a profession {as I would have liked when I was much younger}. It matters what stage of life you are at and what experiences there are in life. And there are stages within stages. That is perhaps one aspect of the hero journey that is so hard to comprehend. Trying to figure just where you are in that hero cycle is hard to do because it is a general outline. To realize you are within a particular stage of development is the best you can hope for.

gerard/Jerry

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Gerard,

Defensiveness? I surely have been that. And you know that, so I can see why you may have perceived my response thusly. And perhaps there is some of that at play here. I was not rejecting what you offered, only trying to communicate that what I feel, just now, is that it is best to not "try too hard" with this, but trust that all is and will be worked out as it needs to. By trying too hard I sometimes obscure what needs to be seen. By saying it is nothing new (not a new discovery) I intend to communicate that I am aware and can see where the changes need to be made. I have the insight. And in time, the change and healing will continue to occur. I trust this. The dream itself is evidence of this.

Kristi

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Hey, Gerard,

Wow, yes, there is some defensiveness going on here. In the moment, I can see that it has been since the dream. And yes, I have come to believe that my expressions in the past few days are precisely what the dream is addressing...they were of a defensive nature. Thanks for bearing with me and for clarifying about the use/roles of subjectivity and objectivity. I do need to look more (objectively) at the MANY negative masculine influences of my life.

Kristi

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Gerard,

I am still trying to gain the understanding from this dream. This was a hard dream to have. The feeling tone was strong. I felt like I really wanted to do, was deeply, emotionally involved in the act of killing, and at the same time, in disbelief of it...and then trying to cover up, feeling guilty.

Why would a shotgun represent two aspects (or situations), verse just one?

Thank you for what you have already shared, I am just having a hard time with this one.

Kristi

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Kristi,
I'll give more time to the dream tomorrow. If there is a strong sense associated with a dream then that may suggest something 'strong' in the dream that may be revealing.

Could the 'defensiveness' as a personal trait be part of it? Dreams do focus on such traits with the intent of balancing what is out of balance.

gerard/Jerry

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Gerard,

That may well be part of it.

It was a very strong feeling tone, of being engaged psychically in the act of killing ... just like one imagine's a criminal killing mind doing, but I was also very lucid to this, not lost in the passion or without awareness of my self ... for the louder, attention grabbing, aspect of consciousness was the part of me that felt this is the wrong way to do, be, etc.

I've just woken from a nap where I had a bizarre dream. So, happened to be here to peek at a few dictionary entries just now. It shows me at the USDB. I'll post is some time later. It may give more clues, too.

Kristi

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Kristi,
There does seem to be a strong possibility the dream is addressing the 'killing' of some part of you. Being with the unrecognized man and the secret killing of someone fits with that possibility. It could relate to two 'killings'. One would be the need/desire to kill those overly aggression attitudes you possess and the other relating to the 'killing' of other aspects of yourself because of those attitudes. "This is not me, what am I doing" could be stating this is not who you really are {aggressive attitudes}. The strong masculine attitudes, and identity {from the military and living with 4 brothers}may be reflected in the '4 men' in the waiting car. The aggressive attitudes are what the men are 'waiting for', masculine traits that the ego/persona have developed due to the circumstances of your life experiences. Perhaps the 4 men taking off is a direct acknowledgement of an attitude of 'taking off' and being aggressive and defensive. 'Inside yourself is this conflict of 'good guy, bad guy'. One is something positive {a strong masculine identity that is needed for many purposes in today's world} and the other negative, the aggressive/defensive attitudes from being 'too masculine oriented'.

The man you are with in his underwear may represent the 'exposing' of these aspects. These negative aspects, after being exposed and confronted by your higher self {two policemen} 'leave' after being confronted. Unconsciously {and in your dreams} you are checking 'who you are', are these unconscious negative {double barrel} attitudes that are causing emotional conflicts {wet from the rain}.

Of course it is easy to present the possibilities of what these men represent. But if they fit with your waking life, that is what identifies them as probable or not. On one hand there is that need/desire to eliminate {kill} those negative 'masculine' aspects. The other side is these negative masculine aspects are 'killing' the real you, the person who is seeking personal growth.

Looking back over the days prior to the dream and seeing experiences where you used aggressive/defensive attitudes may have prompted such a strong reaction from the dream. The unconscious control over your waking life may have been magnified from such experiences putting a focus on the actual underlying reasons for these attitudes. This is what dream do, focus on what is out of balance with a 'desire' to restore balance. If the masculine attitudes are prevailing then feminine aspects are most likely suffering from that.

We Jungians tend to see the 'feminine' aspects as superior and if those qualities are being submissive to the masculine, we need only look to the world around us to see what a mess men have put us in.

gerard/Jerry

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Gerard,

This "spelling it out" helps, much more.

They were single barrel shotguns, the only kind of shotgun I have ever fired (10 gauge shells) - in the military. Nonetheless, there was "two" shotguns.

As for my expressions on the previous few days, I was, like in this dream, aware of my expressions in the moment and how they were too forceful/masculine. It was not something those I shared with noticed or were conscious of, but was my own seeing into my self, in the moment, recognizing this part of my self and how it was part of my unconscious - that reflection being magnified by the mirrors in front of me (the young, aggressive men I was sharing with, at work).

There has, since this dream, been a "drenching of emotions" (tears), as you mentioned in an earlier post of this dream. And I feel there will be more, as I continue to explore my dream of yesterday, which does seem to show how the negative, masculine influence in my life has been killing my feminine self. That dream ended and woke me with my leaving the USDB, gushing blood from my vagina and nose, such that it was filling and splattering all over the floor and walls of a bathroom. That'll wake one up! My feminine nature has been submissive to the masculine all of my life, causing such a loss of life. Yes, I can well see (and know from my own life experience) the terrible effects of that. I sometimes feel I have wept the tears of more than my own self over this, so great the grief has been. I will post the dream, later. It is so long in itself, and I would like to also pen out more of my comments/associations on it, first.

Thanks again, Gerard. You've been very helpful with this.

Kristi

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Gerard,

Yes, this dream is definately about killing the negative masculine aspects. I feel it is exactly what has been/is occurring.

That I do not see any killing, I feel, is because that aspect of mind/consciousness is what is being killed. There was nothing or no one shown being killed. "I" instead "felt" this aspect of consciousness during moments I perceived there to be a killing, with a man.

I also feel the thinking of my dream ego, that said, "this is what they waited for," after firing the shotgun, was in error - as the dream ego often is.

A gun is fired into the air as a warning. I returned to the car (with the man) and found four men waiting, impulsive/inpatient/immature/aggresive - and fired a shot into the air that sent them away. Perhaps the pocket full of ammunition shows that I have what is needed to effectively kill the negative masculine. Then, I (we) go on to the hotel room (a temporary location, a passing stay) where the police officers (higher self aspect) come to announce the end of the drama.

I just had to stop to weep again. We go through life thinking we are the victim (subjected to) something, only to find that very thing exists inside of us, too - that we have to take responsibility and make a choice to be other, to be who and what we really are, to grow, and with it the death of these aspects of self based in fear.

Kristi

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Kristi,
I haven't read your critique. I put forth these possibilities and will let you assess them.

1. Back in old familiar times. What would make you feel that way in the present day? This seems to be feminine aspect at work. The recreation aspect may be a 're-creation' of the past.

2. Enters the masculine into this 're-creation'. Is that the role you feel you need to fill, or have filled? Is that out-of control? It is not the real you, it is another NCO {unwanted aspect of yourself}

3. The control center is your control center {even though I have to admit having been at the USDB myself and in that control center, it brings back my own memories}. Perhaps the unfamiliar aspects of the control center, those masculine aspects that are controlling, are affecting your 'professional' feminine self. This would be something you need to eliminate {bathroom} but have problems doing so.

4. Going down to the depths of the maximum security area would be 'going down to the depths of your unconscious psych/soul'. This is where the true self resides.

5. Michael may represent your positive masculine aspects. The dessert is a part of that positive aspect but there is conflict in receiving/utilizing it.

6. The older NCIOIC may represent a wiser self. This is an aspect that provides light, illumination to your outward actions, the negative masculine aspects that tend to control your actions {aggressive, defensive behavior?}. But you have trouble accessing this valuable aspect. It is covered up, perhaps due to your masculine orientation in life. The feminine aspect roosts in that cover up. This is your true valuable assets, your feminine qualities.

7. Enters the feminine. You may need to elevate the feminine to confront the negative masculine aspects. But again there is difficulty 'cutting through' those masculine traits. The stage may be the stage in life you currently reside, It is about to fall {the ceiling being the thinking mind}. The feminine aspect has been silenced. It is hidden. But there are models of feminine strength in your waking life that provide nourishment {your actual astrologer}.

8. You are resisting some aspect of masculine. It doesn't fit. It is folded up and covers up everything but the vital senses {noise-intuitive sensing, eyes-intuitive sight-feminine qualities}.

9. The A frame. Could that represent an v upside down {^}? V for vagina, the feminine? Just a thought.

10. The wise feminine. And the womb. Perhaps my thought about the vagina has merritt. This is the part that heals. But it comes in patch work, not whole as it should. It feels unnatural due to the controlling influence of the masculine.

11. It is time to eliminate those unwanted controlling masculine influences. The life's energy is being forced out of you. The control for which it has exerted {the negative masculine} has permeated your whole self. The time has come to eliminate its control.

gerard/Jerry

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Gerard,

Thanks. The A frames, the series of them that I drew... Actually, traingles. The triangle is a symbol of the Feminine/The Goddess (her three aspects). In Hinduism, Parashakti, was represented by a triangle.

A lot to look at in this dream. You have given me more to contemplate. And, yes, it is time to eliminate the negative masculine.

Kristi

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P.S. I'll look more at your input through the day and respond again at a later.

Kristi

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