Having commented on Deana's response to my interpretation to her dream I wish to further that conversation involving the depths of the unconscious. Here are some thoughts on the matter of the therapeutic value of dreams, the natural aspects of the psyche, dream therapy during sleep, as well as comments about my own abilities when it comes to dreams, Jung and intelligence. I'll start with contents of the conversation from Deana's post.

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The unconscious is very much a vast unexplored 'land' holding 'secrets' not only of a personal 'nature' but also a collective. Once there is a recognition of an emotional conflict {in Deana's
case 'not remembering' certain emotional experiences/events} the dreamer can set a path to resolving such issues. It is the recognition/understanding of the emotional energies that are in conflict that the dream is trying to communicate through our dreams.

The Unconscious-Nature's Therapeutic Tool For the Psyche
What makes the 'unconscious' even more fascinating is how 'nature' has made it this way. I personally don't believe for a moment that this all came about willy nilly. I do believe it is a device where nature provides the needed tools for a 'natural' evolutionary expansion. Not something that stems from an 'intelligent' design but one of filling the required needs of the evolutionary function that natural resources determines, one that best fits within nature.
It is a part of the process where there is the survival of the fittest but with the caveat that nature retains its power to dissolve any one thing at any given time. The power of nature, something we have witnessed this year on a grand scale in the changing weather world wide. Mankind is powerless in the wake of nature's 'processes'. And as with the individual life, what happens in a lifespan is usually determined by the actions of the individual.
The emotional conflicts with an individuals life is primarily the result of that person's actions. This can greatly affect the individuals physical/psychological health.
On a collective level this holds true also, the planet EARTH being the collective {with the earth being a part of the 'universal' collective} and a benefactor of our 'collective' human behavior. It does affect the health of the planet.

What shouldn't come as a surprise is the dream's role in our understanding of the deep psyche. My philosophy is the dreams primary function is to help resolve those unresolved and/or 'not understood' emotional issues in the dreamer's life {positive and negative}. Just as with the immune system that helps protect the physical body against invading germs and disease, the dream is the immune system for the 'physical brain'. Its function is to present to the dreamer {with its
'archaic'* language of symbol and metaphor} those emotions that
hold 'psyche/psychic'** energies that are in conflict. These are primarily emotional but can also be related to physical conditions {anything physical becomes an emotional event/experience}. We are so consumed and controlled by our emotions we are not consciously aware of their influence, let alone what are the underlying causes for them {there is always an underlying reason for everything}. Our dreams not only help in resolving the emotional issues in the present but also the underlying causations for the 'primary' emotions, including personality issues/traits {most all of which begin in childhood}

In our waking hours we are most often concerned with the 'what is around the bend and not in the moment'.
{this can be tested while driving the interstate. Where is your attention span? One the tree line on the horizon or on what you are going to do this weekend?}. Our lives are centered on emotional forces that have to do with the outer world. The inner forces are not even considered let alone understood. The dream attempts to bring these 'inner forces' to outer conscious attention in an attempt to facilitate a healing of what it is that is 'out of balance'. Most lives are lived in an uneven existence with the primary reasons being unconscious. Emotional turmoil, the result of inner conflicts, rules most lives. Without the dream we would all would go insane.

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* relating to, or characteristic of a much earlier, often more primitive period, especially one that develops into a classical stage of civilization

** Psyche/the soul, psychic/relating to the mental processes

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Therapy of Dreams While we Sleep
Even without a conscious investigation of the unconscious mental forces the dream provides psychological healing while we sleep. This is not something I 'assume', it has been clinically tested and has a basis to be determined as a truth. I use
the following example from an article from Evolutionary Psychology titled '
The Role of Dreams in the Evolution of the Human Mind' to illustrate my point:

Threat Rehearsal
When awoken abruptly from a terrifying nightmare, it is easy to understand the strength dream imagery has in generating both physiological and cognitive responses. In the case of a nightmare, heart rate is accelerated, sweating occurs, and a general feeling of fear and anxiety can extend for some time after the dream has finished (Mellman et al., 1985). Even though dreams are a form of mental representation, in the sense that perception is not tied to stimuli in the environment, they are generally experienced as real and the content is perceptually indistinguishable from waking perception (Freud, 1900).

If merely imagining an event has the power to better prepare us for an actual event by physically activating comparable brain regions, then it should follow that the more realistic the simulation of events, the more the brain treats the information as real. Also, if this capacity to simulate an environment allows us to be optimally prepared to deal with challenges in a real environment, it should affect fitness and be naturally selected for across generations (Darwin, 1995). The threat-simulation hypothesis of dreaming argues that this is the purpose of dreams and the reason why dreaming has evolved (Revonsuo, 2000). It is suggested by this theory that dreams serve the purpose of allowing for the rehearsal of threatening scenarios in order to better prepare an individual for real-life threats. This is supported by evidence from dream reports to be discussed below.

the article continues

Beyond Threat Simulation
While Revonsuo (2000) limits his argument to the effectiveness of dreams in preparing for real-world threats, it is our goal now to extend this argument. We propose that the fitness-enhancing benefits of dreaming is not restricted to threat rehearsal, and the evolution of other higher-order cognitive faculties has been strongly influenced by a dreaming mechanism.

Further into the article

Since higher mental operations can occur during dreams, this is surely bound to interact and feed into waking cognitive abilities, and while it might not confer an obvious benefit to fitness, dreams are a venue that have been used in a number of cultures to attain higher states of consciousness (e.g., Tibetan dream yoga, and the practices of the Senoi) and increase one’s sense of well-being (Wangyal, Rinpoche, and Dahlby, 199 .

Conclusion

While it has been proposed that dreaming is a by-product of the way in which the architecture of sleep was designed (Flanagan, 2000), the evidence presented here suggests that there are clear cognitive and behavioral ramifications due to the fact that while asleep our mind not only continues working, but acts in such a way that we are necessarily thrust into various virtual scenarios. The processing of dream content, which consists of variations in scenarios encountered during daily life in which we interact with the physical and social world, is bound to influence our cognitive capacities and subsequent appraisal of real-world content. As greater technological advances occur in the field of cognitive neuroscience we should be able to directly test some of the fundamental hypotheses generated in this paper. Specifically, we should be able to gather information pertaining to the development of the dreaming mind in humans and others species, as well as information regarding the potential benefits gained by dreaming and the costs incurred in its absence. While only through the empirical validation of the theory proposed in this paper may we be able to better understand the role of dreaming as an evolutionary adaptation, the current work is a start along this road.

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Intuitive Recognition of Unconscious Realizations

Much of what I propose in my 'discussions' about the unconscious is 'self learned' and not from any formal education in psychological fields of training. It is what I think of as 'intuitive' knowledge or thinking. I spent the first 42 years of my life {I am now 61} as someone much different than I am today when it comes to 'mental processes'. My formulations of 'thoughts' were, like most people', outward focused with the inner processes unknown to me. My primary concerns were to please the 'self' for the moment without regard to future consequences {emotionally-I have always been a well grounded person, objective and reasoning, able to discern and reconcile the outer world}. My world was of placating the outer desires {which I know now to be motivated by the inner forces}, being the typical 'couch potato' and sports enthusiast. The void that 'lived' within me eventually became so strong it required a re-evaluation {what we know as the 'mid-life thing'}.

Enter Synchronicity

Fatefully, in 1992, Joseph Campbell came along and changed my whole life. Jung soon followed as well as other 'sages of the soul' and awakened the unconscious forces I now use in working with dreams and the deep unconscious. These 'forces' are what
I think of as 'common sensible' processes of thought, objective thinking accompanied by life experiences that aid in recognizing 'intuitive' inner aspects of the psych. What Jung proposes in his theories and philosophies are what I believe to be 'inherent' in the nature of the mind. What is true is consistent in the natural world and all that is needed to understand such concepts is to discover them through the processes of scientific research. Possessing a strong intuitive mind lends itself to this understanding. The education from life experienecs also is important to this understanding. It just happens I possess these intuitive processes/life experiences needed to understand the dream and psyche. At least this is how I look at what I think of as 'my inner calling'. I possess at best an average intelligence {measuring intelligence by what is learned in life is much more indicative than the measurements used in most formal tests} but my life experiences tend to compliment a deep intuitive sense. Add to that the process of developing those intuitive senses, there is little reason to believe there are a great many 'average' types who could be so much more with the proper guidance. I like to think I am a conduit to that guidance. Whereas Myths-Dreams-Symbols is an extension of that 'other me', it also embodies the message of the sages of the psyche {at last count there were 600+ pages in the MDS website}. The legacy of an 'average mind' looking for his place in a world of lesser minds {this doesn't speak of a greater me, it tells more of the decaying condition of the masses}.

As a side note to the popularity of the website Myths-Dreams-Symbols, my followers at Twitter are primarily in the fields of psychology or creativity.

Jerry

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A subtext to the penning of this post has to do with what I am 'wishing' for in my future. To be able to have the time to put into words the concepts I have come to believe in, the knowledge I have learned on a personal level, this will be the fulfillment of my bliss. The more I put toward the creative self the more I feel I have to express. Of course this is the norm when the creative self is discovered and made the primary focus in life.
What I have to say may not be new to others. The way I state it may. That is the ultimate goal, putting into 'simple' words the 'higher' knowledge I have learned from the masters of the psyche. Jung was deep, had access to the psyche, a deeper knowledge others had difficulty in learning. Campbell was a great 'articulator' of these higher concepts. I hope to be a conduit between what Campbell began in his articulation of this knowledge. What Campbell did not have was the new age of technology. This is will be my form of communication, my method of articulating the 'old knowledge' {Gnosis}. I have good vibes of positive changes in the coming year.

Jerry

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Jerry, sorry about the last post about the author's dream, I wasn't being very clear, and I didn't mean to make my post about me, that's partly the reason I was probably hard to follow. anyway, this post reminds me of some things jung said in his autobiography. maybe it was also answer to job, which is my favorite, I think. He said that the individuation process happens naturally. I would guess he means that he has looked at the dreams of mature people who don't usually remember their dreams at all, and have a rare dream that they remember, which would suggest that despite the individuals familiarity with their psyche, the process happens naturally and on its own.
It also reminds me of the idea that the psyche can be dangerous for some people who might have a latent psychosis, and he was not optimistic about the percentage of the population with that. So it seems as it always has been, so shall it remain, that the psyche is not much of a prescription for the salt of the earth. at least for now.

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Sam,
I have started a reply to your post on a couple of occasions only to have something come up that kept me from finishing. Usually it has to do with responsibilities to do with 'work', the 'social duty' thing.

To address your question about the 'natural' aspects of remembering 'rare' dreams as well as Individuation being a natural response. I am a bit confused at the question but if you mean 'nature' has a process of guiding the individual through emotional experiences, yes, the Individuation Process would be that 'natural' aspect of healing. By rare dreams I take it to mean 'archetypal' dreams, where a mythological form is the central theme of the dream. Such dreams usually leave an imprint on the waking conscious because of the 'emotional energy' they possess and their importance { usually such dreams happen during major transitions in life}. As for the use of 'mature people' it does require 'maturity' to engage oneself in the Individuation Process. I believe in most instances the process is cast upon the individual and if the person is ready, and psychologically mature, ready for it then there is a true transformation in store for that person. The Individuation Process is a 'self' psychology. Image having to analyze oneself and being able to do so successfully. It is possible, I being an example of having 'traveled that path' in my journey to wholeness {wholeness being the ultimate gauge of a success 'individuation'}.

As for the danger of exploring the deep psyche. Jung addressed that aspect of the psyche in his theory of the Mana personalities. This is where the personality borders on megalomania. Whereas the individual seeks wholeness through 'inner' discovery, the knowledge that is accessed {Gnosis} is, instead of used to heal, is taken over by the conscious self and become destructive to the personality. It is a bit like looking at the fine line between genius and insanity. Not much room between the two. To discover that 'inner knowledge' of Self and use it in a destructive manner is how a devious mind can work. Hitler may fall into such a category { he and his henchmen studied the 'mystical' forces within nature and used them as evil}.

AS for your statement 'the psyche is not much of a prescription for the salt of the earth'. The psyche is what it is, each individual possessing a 'psyche. My definition of the psyche is one of the 'whole self' as well as the energy we call the soul. The soul is the energy that gives us the fuel to exist but the individual determines how that life is lived. Life is a psychological journey and that journey, in my estimation, is an adventure for the soul. After the human life ends the soul takes flight in search for a new adventure. Along the lines of Buddhism except I don't know that if we are re-incarnated into another earthly life form or the soul merely returns to nature and ends up who knows where.


Jerry

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Jerry, there is a place towards the end of answer to job where jung says that the individuation process happens in everyone without them really knowing it. In many people it happens, I think he means. Meaning that the psyche progresses naturally, given the satisfactory conditions, and reconciles the opposites to a satisfactory degree in people who are unaware of it and probably later in life. I am assuming he bases this starement on some sort of empirical evidence where he has heard of dreams from such people who rarely remember their dreams, and who wouldn't understand them either. I assume jung saw in them a high level of psychic developement. What jung offered as a caveat is that
"In so far as this process, as a rule, runs its course unconsciously as it has from time immemorial, it means no more than that the acorn becomes an oak, the calf a cow, and the child an adult"...he goes on, "The difference between the "natural" individuation process, which runs its course unconsciously, and the one which is consciously realized, is tremendous. In the first case consciousness nowhere intervenes; the end remains as dark as the beginning. In the second case so much darkness comes to light that the personality is permeated with light, and consciousness necessarily gains in scope and insight."
I thought that would be a good support for this theory of even the therapeutic value of dreams without them even being consciously realized by most people, let alone appreciated.
On the same page he remarks, "but if the individuation process is made conscious, consciousness must confront the unconscious and a balance between the opposites must be found."

As we probably know, this is a supreme task of supreme courage. Maybe I overstate this or miss the mark somehow. I know jung was quick to provide that this experience is enough to break apart a personality. jung put it well saying, "All the gods and demons, whose physical nothingness is so easily passed of as the "opium of the people," return to their place of origin, Man, and become an intoxicating poison compared with which all previous dope is child's play."
I don't want to dwell on the subject. It's rather a variation from your original post. Am I saying I don't think most people are up to the experience? I know people who tell me they hate to remember their dreams because when they do, they are nightmares. They are afraid to intuit any hope or beauty beyond those nightmares, so they cut it off. Possibly it's a good decisioun. The psyche is in a poor state these days, it seems. The medicine is too bitter for them. There are a lot of us out there though.

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Sam,
I am not familiar with that part of the 'Answer to Job' but the natural evolution to individuation would be understandable since the psyche does use it as a therapeutic device. I am an example of someone who has utilized this method of 'self psychology' to find within myself the answers to wholeness. It is available to anyone who wishes to use it but it does take a type of personality that is 'caught' by the elements of Jungian psyche. Joseph Campbell admonishment about mythology, it has to catch you' holds true with Jungian psyche {anyone who is caught up in Campbell's philosophies are participating in Jungian psyche since Campbell and Jung are pretty much the same philosophies}. I believe this statement says much about how to answer your question, "The difference between the "natural" individuation process, which runs its course unconsciously, and the one which is consciously realized, is tremendous." Those unconscious forces in life, often controlling forces that we are unaware of, must be made conscious. This is what Individuation is about. Realizing what those unconscious forces are, personal and collective, and making them conscious.

Personal Note: In my life the unconscious controlling forces I needed to be made conscious had to do with the non-relationship with my father {a common theme in real life and mythology}.

Confronting these unconscious forces are what must be done to overcome their influences. Just as Luke Skywalker had to confront his real father, Darth Vader, the metaphorical reference in that action is the confronting of the 'dark side' within us.
The supreme task of the supreme courage. This is Campbell's Monomyth hero. It takes courage as well as discipline to overcome these unconscious forces. It is the task of the inner hero/heroine that achieves the victory. And when there is success there is a realization of the spiritual element, often in the form of creativity, that is exposed as the one thing that gives meaning to life. 'Use the Force Luke', the 'metaphysical' element within the psyche that will deliver us from the bondage of our dark side. Personal deliverance to do with the experiences in life, especially early life, that influence who we become, as well as a deliverance to the 'higher' condition of spirituality and creativity.

You are correct that most people are not up to the task. Americans in particular are so caught up in 'ego self' that can not see beyond the next mornings desires. This has led to a decline in how we treat each other {just look at the political situation}. One extreme wants to go back to the 'old time religion' while the other wants to ignore the consequences of being too giving to negative impulses that can be just as destructive {I would rather be aligned with the latter}. What is being overlooked by these 'personal' associations is the 'universal' influence of our actions. The planet is being destroyed as we center our attention on personal desires.

The personal psyche is indeed in terrible condition. The universal psyche is merely experiencing a phase in its exploration of its being {just as with God, that source of being is unknown, unknowable}. In my mind this life I am experiencing on earth is merely an experience for the soul. After this life ends the soul continues its path to exploring other adventures. Of course this is my theory.

As for reality, my experience is 'Individuation' does work, for those who have the capacity and discipline to persevere and endure. The dragons in life will never cease to be. And either will the need to slay them. Without the opposites human life would lack the emotional element. It is the emotional element that makes us different from all other things on earth.

But the question can be asked, "if there were not that overpowering emotional element what would life be like on earth?" If all things were equal, where all life respects all other life, would there not be a better world? I sometimes wonder if nature took a wrong turn in its evolution of the human species when it gave us these powerful emotional tools. Of course it is not wrong in what nature does, nature is God. But we can always dream of a 'Utopia', paradise, Shangri La.

Jerry

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